Author Topic: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild  (Read 18930 times)

Reply #15February 09, 2012, 04:57:37 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 04:57:37 pm »
I don't like the stock vanagon turbo mounting location.  Poor drainage and sensitive location.  I definitely prefer modifying the driver's side bracket and using the transverse manifold if going with the K14.  If replacing the K14, be sure to get one for an AAZ and NOT one for a 1.6TD.  The compressor wheel on the AAZ version is larger.  As I said in my initial post, IMO the k14 is the best "bolt-on" turbo for the AAZ in a vanagon.

Cutting out the bottom of the D-pillar and venting to the wheel well is a bad idea, IMO.  I have heard of many individuals doing that and anyone who has posted results have been mediocre at best.  The back of the wheel well is a positive pressure area and ducting there from the positive pressure area of the D-pillar louvers results in stagnant flow.  I have had very good results venting into the engine compartment or ducting to louvers on the sides of the license plate door, both of which are significant low pressure areas and result in very good flow from the positive pressure D-pillar louvers.

Reply #16February 10, 2012, 09:53:24 pm

TonyTDTruck

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2012, 09:53:24 pm »
It does look like I'm staying with the K14 for now. I don't have the resources to find a mount and transverse intake manifold especially since I don't know much about this setup.
This turbo came with the AAZ motor. Or the motor came with this turbo. The AAZ block has a return line going to the block for the turbo. The oil pan is for a 50deg setup and it too has a hole for a return. The 1.6TD probably doesn't have a hole in the block for the return line. Which one would work better? The lines are different. See the picture with the two options.
I'm sourcing a repair shop for the turbo and I will e-mail Giles on Monday asking about tuning up the pump.
Great input on the cooling radiators. I do like the idea of mounting the oil cooler up front. It looks like a lot of hose to front and back. At this distance, what type of pressure hose should I use? The intercooler will mount in the engine compartment some how. I don't want to cut any panels beings that this truck is original and in good shape.
These things are expensive I'm figuring out. I can't imagine what the intercooler setup is going to run.
Can a fan be mounted on the intercooler?
Thanks again for all of the input.
Tony

« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:45:48 am by TonyTDTruck »
How do you wash a pressure washer?
And did you know that the 14th floor in a
hotel is actually the 13th floor!

Reply #17February 11, 2012, 07:10:12 pm

Syncroincity

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2012, 07:10:12 pm »
Oil return is a pain in the tucchus on these motors in the Transporter... I plugged up that block bung (Greaseworks has a plug for it) and am using the TD oil pan return; when it's mounted over at 50*, the block return hole is almost an uphill run. You have to cobble together a return line long enough... the AAZ is taller than the 1.6 motors, so even a vanagon TD return line is too short. I got hold of an extension hose from Brickwerks for mine. If you have access to a hydraulic shop the easiest thing would be to have a return line made up...

...and just to reiterate; that K-14 lives right where your left aluminum motor mount wants to be... the problem is the wastegate. Something needs to be modified. AFAIK the T2 Passat turbo is the only original AAZ snail that actually clears the motor mount, and even that needs to be shaved down a bit.

Beautiful pan... :o Powder coated?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 07:33:01 pm by Syncroincity »
JC McCavitt
'86 Syncro GL Camper AAZ
'98 Jetta Wolfie
'04 Passat Variant GLS 4Mo 5MT

Reply #18February 11, 2012, 08:13:17 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2012, 08:13:17 pm »
K03 fits without any interference on the AAZ.  I haven't used a T2, but saw it mounted on an AAZ and couldn't see anything modified. 

On my AHU using the TD oil pan, I teed the oil return line to both the block and the pan.  It has a consistent downhill run to the pan and at the tee it goes uphill to the block.  I figure the tee eliminates the possibility of crank pressure pushing oil up into the turbo from the pan.

Reply #19February 11, 2012, 09:10:18 pm

TonyTDTruck

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2012, 09:10:18 pm »
My intention was to use the 1.6TD exhaust manifold. I thought it would clear the mount, but the AAZ turbo doesn't like the 1.6TD manifold. The oil return line hits the manifold.
If I use the AAZ manifold, this can present a problem with the aluminum mount. Do you recommend using the AAZ manifold with the center exhaust port?
How is the K03 compatible with the K14? If it's equal I don't have any problem going with that.
In this picture, you can see the aluminum mount. The cylinder head is at the machine shop still. Otherwise it would be mounted and I could check for interference.
Yep it's powder coated. I have the motor mounts, brackets, intake manifold and valve cover powder coated red as well. It looks nice but it also protects it from corrosion.
Thanks
Tony



How do you wash a pressure washer?
And did you know that the 14th floor in a
hotel is actually the 13th floor!

Reply #20February 11, 2012, 10:36:04 pm

Syncroincity

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2012, 10:36:04 pm »
I see another issue with using the 1.6TD manifold with the K-14; it's going to mount your turbo backwards, with the exhaust facing the rear of the van. Nothing insurmountable, if you're going to build your own intake & exhaust plumbing, but forget using any factory pipes.

JC McCavitt
'86 Syncro GL Camper AAZ
'98 Jetta Wolfie
'04 Passat Variant GLS 4Mo 5MT

Reply #21February 12, 2012, 08:56:59 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2012, 08:56:59 am »
The quantum/vanagon exhaust manifold will work.  It has the exhaust going toward the front of the van.  A weird custom intake tube is needed to go around the carrier bar, but that part should be stock on your van already.

Here's my dissertation on the bolt-on turbo options:

Quote
Appropriately sizing a turbo to a specific engine in a specific vehicle is complicated.  A turbo that is small will spool very quickly and yet is small enough that it can be a bit restrictive, potentially hurting high-rpm performance.  A turbo that is large will have significant lag where no boost at all is developed.  When the larger turbo hits its "boost threshold" it will start creating boost and will quickly rise to whatever boost pressure is being regulated by the turbo wastegate.  The larger turbo flows much better at higher rpms than a small turbo and so is less of an exhaust restriction and will give better high-rpm performance.  The decision of what turbo is best is very subjective.  Many people hate turbo lag and so want a smaller turbo.  Many people don't mind the lag and prefer the bigger punch when the turbo spools and find the better high-rpm performance desirable.

With regard to specifically the vanagon, I have always preferred to have more boost in the lower rpms in order to help get the big box moving.  I don't tend to rev it high and so having the boost at lower rpms is important.  The other factor to consider with the vanagon installation is whether or not the turbo interferes with any of the engine mounting components and what work is necessary to eliminate that interference.  There were basically 5 different turbo-chargers used on the 1.6TD and 1.9TD engines.  They were the T3, K24, K14, T2, and K03.

The T3 and K24 have the same boost characteristics and are both just plain too large for the 1.6TD in a vanagon.  Boost doesn't start until about 3,000-3,500 rpms and you can literally get stuck in 2nd gear on moderate grades and even if you rev it to the limit, you cannot shift fast enough to be above the boost threshold in 3rd and without any boost you cannot accelerate.  This effect is most apparent at higher altitudes, but those turbos are irritating even at lower altitudes.  The K24 and T3 also both severely interfere with the driver's side mounting bracket.

The T2 and K03 are the smallest of the 5 turbos and share the same boost characteristics as each other.  Their boost threshold is below idle and so you will see basically instant boost when letting the clutch out.  Full boost is developed by 2,000 rpms.  They don't ever give the punch of the larger turbos because they are always developing some boost.  They do restrict the exhaust more than the larger turbos and so comparatively hurt high-rpm power some.

The last option is the K14.  It is middle-of-the-road as far as size is concerned.  It is a much better turbo than the K24 and T3.  It flows as well as the larger ones at higher rpms and yet spools at least 1,000 rpms sooner.  There is some lag, but you definitely feel the boost kick in more than with the k03.  The K14 flows better at high-rpms than the K03.  The K14 is a significant interference with the driver's side mounting bracket.

To me the slight lag of the k14 is offset by the added punch and better high-end performance.  Making the mounting bracket work is a bit of added work, tho.  Easiest is to chop off the nose of the bracket and add a piece of 3/8" steel to the bottom and lowering the front of the carrier bar by adding a 3/4" spacer.

Reply #22February 12, 2012, 08:58:27 am

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2012, 08:58:27 am »
arent all VW turbo manifolds going to point the turbo outlet towards the front of the van? since the vanagon never came standard as a TD vehicle?

(ive seen a TD vanagon, and didnt know how rare they were until i learned a little more about them, and i KNOW it was turbo charged, because i was driving my GTI, and it was SCREAMIN when it went by. sounded more like my turbo diesel with the VNT turbo and open downpipe, than a vanagon.. i didnt see it at first, just heard the turbo, and i could tell WITHOUT A DOUBT, that it was a VW turbo diesel coming up the road. i honestly thought someone stole my rabbit, and i was going to see it driving by.. but no, i turn around, look, and its a big white westy Vanagon!)

now, knowing what i know, if i were to do it over again, i would have waved the driver down, and had him stop so i could check out his ride.. it was SUPER CLEAN, so i imagine the swap was equally clean.
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #23February 12, 2012, 09:04:16 am

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2012, 09:04:16 am »
Quote
Appropriately sizing a turbo to a specific engine in a specific vehicle is complicated.  A turbo that is small will spool very quickly and yet is small enough that it can be a bit restrictive, potentially hurting high-rpm performance.  A turbo that is large will have significant lag where no boost at all is developed.  When the larger turbo hits its "boost threshold" it will start creating boost and will quickly rise to whatever boost pressure is being regulated by the turbo wastegate.  The larger turbo flows much better at higher rpms than a small turbo and so is less of an exhaust restriction and will give better high-rpm performance.  The decision of what turbo is best is very subjective.  Many people hate turbo lag and so want a smaller turbo.  Many people don't mind the lag and prefer the bigger punch when the turbo spools and find the better high-rpm performance desirable.

With regard to specifically the vanagon, I have always preferred to have more boost in the lower rpms in order to help get the big box moving.  I don't tend to rev it high and so having the boost at lower rpms is important.  The other factor to consider with the vanagon installation is whether or not the turbo interferes with any of the engine mounting components and what work is necessary to eliminate that interference.  There were basically 5 different turbo-chargers used on the 1.6TD and 1.9TD engines.  They were the T3, K24, K14, T2, and K03.

The T3 and K24 have the same boost characteristics and are both just plain too large for the 1.6TD in a vanagon.  Boost doesn't start until about 3,000-3,500 rpms and you can literally get stuck in 2nd gear on moderate grades and even if you rev it to the limit, you cannot shift fast enough to be above the boost threshold in 3rd and without any boost you cannot accelerate.  This effect is most apparent at higher altitudes, but those turbos are irritating even at lower altitudes.  The K24 and T3 also both severely interfere with the driver's side mounting bracket.

The T2 and K03 are the smallest of the 5 turbos and share the same boost characteristics as each other.  Their boost threshold is below idle and so you will see basically instant boost when letting the clutch out.  Full boost is developed by 2,000 rpms.  They don't ever give the punch of the larger turbos because they are always developing some boost.  They do restrict the exhaust more than the larger turbos and so comparatively hurt high-rpm power some.

The last option is the K14.  It is middle-of-the-road as far as size is concerned.  It is a much better turbo than the K24 and T3.  It flows as well as the larger ones at higher rpms and yet spools at least 1,000 rpms sooner.  There is some lag, but you definitely feel the boost kick in more than with the k03.  The K14 flows better at high-rpms than the K03.  The K14 is a significant interference with the driver's side mounting bracket.

To me the slight lag of the k14 is offset by the added punch and better high-end performance.  Making the mounting bracket work is a bit of added work, tho.  Easiest is to chop off the nose of the bracket and add a piece of 3/8" steel to the bottom and lowering the front of the carrier bar by adding a 3/4" spacer.
[/quote]

thought the K03 was the smallest by far, and then the T2/K14 were a bit better, and about identical performers?

but you say the K03 and T2 are closer in characteristics than the T2 and K14? ive always thought the K24 and T3 performed similarly, along with the K14 and T2 performing similarly? and then the K03 was just a tiny little insta-spooler with big top end restrictions?

anyways, im not trying to argue, i genuinely want to know whats right is all, and i know you have ALOT more knowledge than i do, about the subject..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #24February 12, 2012, 10:55:53 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 10:55:53 am »
You may be right.  The T2 is the only one of the five that I have not personally owned and installed on a vehicle and so my experience with them is limited.  If they are closer in performance to the K14, then I am more interested in them, especially if they do not interfere as severely with the driver's side bracket.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 10:59:09 am by libbydiesel »

Reply #25February 13, 2012, 05:15:43 am

TonyTDTruck

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2012, 05:15:43 am »
Okay turbo experts. I wish I knew more about it so I could get in the middle. From the looks of things, the K14 is the best option for this truck project. The exhaust manifold that came with the AAZ is the best way to go If I want the performance the K14 has to offer. As I mentioned before and in the pictures , you can see the 1.6TD manifold  just doesn't like the turbo. I will be doing all of the exhaust and intake custom. A friend knows a guy who welds aluminum intake pipes.
Libby: Good to know about the tee for the return like. I'll have to take a look at that. What Quantum motor and year does this manifold come from? I will surely take a look at that. I should have the cylinder head back from the shop this week so I can mount it to start checking things.
If I have to mod the driver side mount I will. Grease Works has a TDI mount that clears the turbo on that setup. I also like the metal bracket mod that helps to clear the turbo. Some pictures of this mounted on a van would be very helpful. I know it would be different than my setup but at least I can see what's going on.
Do I have it right? The K14 with the AAZ manifold? Driver side mount modified? Custom intake and exhaust? Oil cooler to the front and intercooler in the engine compartment someplace?
I found a turbo shop in Corvallis Oregon called Bell Turbos. Pius is his name. He said he could rebuild it with German parts. Pius called it a pop-it valve of a sort. On most turbos this is external with a rod pulling a lever. I said okay.
Thanks
Tony
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 05:18:16 am by TonyTDTruck »
How do you wash a pressure washer?
And did you know that the 14th floor in a
hotel is actually the 13th floor!

Reply #26February 13, 2012, 05:47:50 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2012, 05:47:50 am »
You can, and in fact should, clock (rotate) the center section of the turbo so that when it is installed in the vehicle, the oil inlet is at 12:00 and the outlet @ 6:00.  That will alleviate the manifold interference.  Regardless, to clock the turbo properly when installed, you will need to remove the oil return pipe.  Best approach, IMO, is to use a banjo bolt and fitting in it's place and run a custom oil line off of the banjo fitting.

Here are the best pictures I have of the modded bracket:




Reply #27February 15, 2012, 06:32:33 am

TonyTDTruck

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 06:32:33 am »
Libby,
Is that a 1/2" x 2" bar? It looks really stout from the picture. Rotating the turbo center section is a good idea. When I receive the cylinder head, I will mount the manifolds and post pictures.
Great info.
Thanks again.
Tony
How do you wash a pressure washer?
And did you know that the 14th floor in a
hotel is actually the 13th floor!

Reply #28February 15, 2012, 12:46:10 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 12:46:10 pm »
If memory serves, it was 3/8", but I did that bracket mod about a decade ago.

Reply #29February 15, 2012, 01:23:43 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Help With 94 Jetta AAZ Rebuild
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 01:23:43 pm »
You can, and in fact should, clock (rotate) the center section of the turbo so that when it is installed in the vehicle, the oil inlet is at 12:00 and the outlet @ 6:00.  That will alleviate the manifold interference.  Regardless, to clock the turbo properly when installed, you will need to remove the oil return pipe.  Best approach, IMO, is to use a banjo bolt and fitting in it's place and run a custom oil line off of the banjo fitting.

Here are the best pictures I have of the modded bracket:





is that an ENGINE MOUNT? i would be TERRIFIED to run that on my car..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.