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Author Topic: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?  (Read 11338 times)

February 04, 2012, 11:09:07 pm

pgringo

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ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« on: February 04, 2012, 11:09:07 pm »
 :D  ok, since i'll be starting from scratch, i'm wondering what would be the ultimate setup for a 1.6td motor to horseshoe into a mk1.  i'd love some suggestions or chewouts.  what i've come to understand as a starting point:

1.6td longblock

head studs

gasser intake or custom log

vnt ?? turbo

what injection pump?  glegor (fixed! ;) ), you said something about a peugeot 505 turbo ip?

injectors?

is there a higher output alternator?

cam?

don't get too mad, but i'm not interested in changing crank, rods, or pistons.

 :-*



yes, it's saturday night & i'm sitting at home on teh interwebz benchracing.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 11:09:12 pm by pgringo »


Daily: 1982 Mercedes 300sd
Project#1: 1981 Volvo bertone coupe w/ vw d24t or d24+t
Project#2: 1976 dodge ramcharger 4x4 w/ ctd
Project#3: vw cabriolet turbodiesel (still in planning stage)

Reply #1February 04, 2012, 11:38:49 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 11:38:49 pm »
High amp alternator robs horsepower.

Go lowest amp if no a/c and no rear window grid -
or lose/incapacitate those options.

Port Polish Gasket Match head/manifolds.

A big wide intercooler instead of a plastic grill - with a VW emblem tagged to it in the center for effect.

Cone air filters instead of headlights. Dual Ram Air

Reply #2February 05, 2012, 12:41:18 am

RadoTD

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 12:41:18 am »
AAZ head if you can get your hands on one

Big valves and porting so deep you'll need to tig your head back up due to water leaks

Big turbo, VNT, compound turbos or compound VNT's depending on how far you want to go

ARP 204-4706 head studs and MLS gasket

High amp alternator? Try low amp alternator hooked up to a switch so it disconnects at wide open throttle! :D

Air/water intercooler

Block girdle

Injection pump depends on above goals. 9, 10, 11 or 12mm head. Giles can build whatever monster pump you can dream of or slap a Cummins 4bt IP on and replace fuelling finesse with dumping gobs of raw oil in

Does Dr Diesel still have/make cams? Him or possibly ABA cam (I was tempted to try this, multiple issues though) or Colt Cams could probably make you a beautiful custom grind

All of that could be buckets full of fun in a mk1... hey! I just said a rhyme! I wish I could do that all the time...

enough boost is when you have 3 dimple marks in the hood from the valve cover nuts..  ;D

Reply #3February 05, 2012, 01:02:54 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 01:02:54 pm »
:D  ok, since i'll be starting from scratch, i'm wondering what would be the ultimate setup for a 1.6td motor to horseshoe into a mk1.  i'd love some suggestions or chewouts.  what i've come to understand as a starting point:

1.6td longblock

head studs

gasser intake or custom log

vnt ?? turbo

what injection pump?  gregor, you said something about a peugeot 505 turbo ip?

injectors?

is there a higher output alternator?

cam?

don't get too mad, but i'm not interested in changing crank, rods, or pistons.

 :-*



yes, it's saturday night & i'm sitting at home on teh interwebz benchracing.



you want a daily driver or a powerhouse?

they are 2 different things.. my engine as it is now, with just one turbo, and with a turned up VW pump, is quite a blast to drive..

its enough power to smoke ricers and hemis and that sort of thing, but doscile enough to be street driven no problem..

for all out power? start off with a 1.9, or a TDI better yet..

and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..

im going to add a T3 hybrid to my VNT15, in a compound setup also, and i will need to convert to the metal gasket, and stud the block..

as for the head bolts/gasket/that sort of thing, ive been running stock head bolts and a fiber gasket for LOTS AND LOTS of miles now.. only issues ive had so far, were with a 1.5D, and because the block cracked.. the gasket was fine until the head lifted, then it crapped coolant and oil everywhere..

and im with these guys, if your building a power house, use a small perm-mag alternator off a tractor or something.. think palm sized.

and anyone who isnt familiar with my user name on Vortex..

G L E G O R...

its my last name, and its regularly butchered.. please atleast spell it right..

there is a company, GREGOR BOATS.. our family despises them..

we build GLEGOR boats.. and they are much nicer than most commercially available boats..

so, please.. its GLEGOR.. theres an L in there.

THANK YOU!!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:08:40 pm by R.O.R-2.0 »
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #4February 05, 2012, 02:44:21 pm

belchfire

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 02:44:21 pm »
Mr. Glegor, How much boost are you running?
I don't get it with the alternator size. Isn't drag a function of the energy being produced? True, if you're cranking 90 amps then it will take a few horses but if it's only putting out 30 amps then how is that worse that a 65 amp unit putting out 30 amps? With my SVO heaters, I need the big unit. The extra pound of weight is a small price to pay for not having a dead battery. However, you don't need more that you need. If you start it once and drive it 50 miles then a 10 amp unit would do. Depends.
  As far as a MK1 turbo goes. Watch for Exh down pipe leaks. It will cook your heater hoses and warm up the interior a bunch.
The Owl of Minerva flies at dusk
'81 rabbit pick up  1.6 turbo diesel  SVO

Reply #5February 05, 2012, 02:57:35 pm

bajacalal

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 02:57:35 pm »
The larger alternators, I believe, physically have more rotating mass even when it's in an idle state... To spin that mass, you require some more energy.

Anyway, what it comes down to is either having a bare-bones car where people say "wow, is a diesel really that fast?" or having something that drives like a modern car, has (most of) the conveniences of a modern car but looks like it rolled straight out of 1978. I would take the latter, after having owned the former (although I should admit my car isn't too crazy with modifications) because at the end of the day it is still a diesel VW and still slower than almost any car popular among "speed enthusiasts." After a while it sucks not having the creature comforts like A/C or a radio that doesn't sound like crap.

I have an intercooled 1.6 TD in a Golf, incidentally...

Here's what I would do if I had to turn back time... in an mk1:

-mech-TDI, hopped up pump
-intercooled  
-large exhaust, good free flowing muffler. This makes a difference.
-working a/c (power steering is not necessary in these cars though)
-electrical system that can support a good sound system
-5 speed
-suspension that handles well.

Also, TD Pugs are out there, I see them pop up every once in a while including non-runners in the $500 range.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 03:00:13 pm by bajacalal »

Reply #6February 05, 2012, 11:33:59 pm

pgringo

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 11:33:59 pm »


you want a daily driver or a powerhouse?
  powerhouse of a weekend car.  i'm planning on placing this into a cabriolet. (lots of dead ones turn up for sale under $1k)  sun...fun...all that stuff.


for all out power? start off with a 1.9, or a TDI better yet..
  no tdi.  i'm all about idi.  i'm not familiar with the 1.9.  is it mechanically controlled? idi?  will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will? 

and if your going to try and find a Pug 505TD pump, good luck. they are more rare than a diesel auto starter.. only reason i said anything about them, is because i have one, and its ALMOST set up to run on a VW with no mods..
  a good friend of mine is a mechanic from france.  he may have one in a parts car or know where one is nearby.  that's why i referenced your 505 comment.  so i should just go with a tweaked stock IP, yes?

im going to add a T3 hybrid to my VNT15, in a compound setup also, and i will need to convert to the metal gasket, and stud the block..
  i'm going single turbo, so i was wondering what size vnt should be run

i'm just trying to figure all this stuff out before i start spending money on it.  i've made misinformed mistakes too many times before with too many other projects.   :-[

Daily: 1982 Mercedes 300sd
Project#1: 1981 Volvo bertone coupe w/ vw d24t or d24+t
Project#2: 1976 dodge ramcharger 4x4 w/ ctd
Project#3: vw cabriolet turbodiesel (still in planning stage)

Reply #7February 05, 2012, 11:48:03 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 11:48:03 pm »
Mr. Glegor, How much boost are you running?
I don't get it with the alternator size. Isn't drag a function of the energy being produced? True, if you're cranking 90 amps then it will take a few horses but if it's only putting out 30 amps then how is that worse that a 65 amp unit putting out 30 amps? With my SVO heaters, I need the big unit. The extra pound of weight is a small price to pay for not having a dead battery. However, you don't need more that you need. If you start it once and drive it 50 miles then a 10 amp unit would do. Depends.
  As far as a MK1 turbo goes. Watch for Exh down pipe leaks. It will cook your heater hoses and warm up the interior a bunch.

as of tonight, im running NO BOOST.. my turbo bit the dust today, 100 miles from home, in Portland..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #8February 06, 2012, 11:28:09 am

RabbitJockey

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 11:28:09 am »
what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.)  as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #9February 06, 2012, 12:45:28 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 12:45:28 pm »
what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.)  as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.

TREVOR!! just who i was looking for..

i need your turbo wisdom.. my VNT is dead.. probably not going to replace it with a VNT unless i get one for a song..

anyways, i have at my disposal:

a T2 off a nissan gasser
a T3 off a 2.5 CHRY gasser (much larger T3 than the stock diesel unit)
a T3 off a 2.3 Pug TD
a TD04 off a 2.2 CHRY
a K24 off a VW 2.0TD
a K26 off an Audi quattro
a T4 off a 4-53 Detroit diesel..

i know that doesnt tell you SH## without numbers and stuff, but what do you think would be the best turbo(s) to replace mine with?

i was just getting ready to go compounds.. now my VNT is not rebuildable.. over 1/4" of radial shaft play, and almost 1/8" of axial play..

it grinds, scrapes, spools and unspools on its own, and even seized up at one point.. and MAN, did it puke its guts all over my engine bay..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #10February 06, 2012, 04:03:34 pm

BillyWillicker

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 04:03:34 pm »
Use the k24 off the TD5 audi.  It is the same as the k24 on a 1.6TD.  Compound the k24 and k26, and don't use a wastegate one the k26, it would be neat to see what kind of top end power that would make.

Reply #11February 06, 2012, 05:28:36 pm

bajacalal

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 05:28:36 pm »
powerhouse of a weekend car.  i'm planning on placing this into a cabriolet. (lots of dead ones turn up for sale under $1k)  sun...fun...all that stuff.


Make sure the exhaust exits well clear of the car, lol.  

Quote
no tdi.  i'm all about idi.  i'm not familiar with the 1.9.  is it mechanically controlled? idi?  will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will?  

Why? Directly injected diesels are just better technology. More power from the same displacement with less fuel consumption and less emissions. I don't think anybody even makes indirect injected diesels anymore. That's why I suggest an m-TDi, which is a hybrid TD and TDI pump bolted onto a TDI that gives you a TDI which all mechanical, no electronics.

There is the 1.9 IDI (mechanical) which you asked about. They were the next step in the evolution of VW diesels between the 1.6 and the TDI. They were not sold in the U.S., as far as I know. They are found in CANADA. They came on mk3 cars before the TDI was introduced. A few have made it across the border. All transverse, watercooled VWs 4-bangers will bolt in an mk1, going up to about mk4 generation stuff. I can't remember when the cut-off is but there is a wide range of engines that will fit the early cars. Even if the mounts are different, the blocks will accept the older mounts.

If you want to use an engine from the same time period as your Cabriolet, use a 1.6 TD.

Quote
i'm going single turbo, so i was wondering what size vnt should be run.

i'm just trying to figure all this stuff out before i start spending money on it.  i've made misinformed mistakes too many times before with too many other projects.   :-[

In that case, read the current thread about VNTs and decide for yourself if you want to go that route. Some of us do not favor them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 05:30:07 pm by bajacalal »

Reply #12February 06, 2012, 06:06:25 pm

regcheeseman

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 06:06:25 pm »
Quote
AAZ head if you can get your hands on one

Dont - just don't.

If there is one piece of advice I really regret taking from this forum it's the BS spouted about the 1.9 head. It'll run like a sack of plop and be useless as a daily.

Unless you like driving something that clacks really bad because of the necessary advance or smokes like hell when first started up (yeah yeah you can run block heaters etc - but that really isn't practical for a usable vehicle

In all other respects you have outlined my previous 1.6 engine build

ported and flowed
vnt
long runner twin plenum manifold
girdle
I ran a 10mm pump - it was noisy and pointless as the 9mm will supply easily enough juice
intercooler
arp head bolts
90a high output alt - it's load on the motor will only be proportional to he electrical load placed on it - there is no real difference in practice.

Good luck with the build.

Reply #13February 06, 2012, 09:50:43 pm

pgringo

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 09:50:43 pm »


Quote
no tdi.  i'm all about idi.  i'm not familiar with the 1.9.  is it mechanically controlled? idi?  will it bolt into a gas car how a 1.5 or 1.6 will?  

Why? Directly injected diesels are just better technology. More power from the same displacement with less fuel consumption and less emissions. I don't think anybody even makes indirect injected diesels anymore. That's why I suggest an m-TDi, which is a hybrid TD and TDI pump bolted onto a TDI that gives you a TDI which all mechanical, no electronics.



omgwtf  i had no clue people were building mtdi motors.  thank you!  i've been putting all my energy into learning the 1.5 & 1.6 motors because they were all mechanical.  time to go back to school (i already found the faq).  shoot, i've seen running tdi cars with no title selling for $1k. 
Daily: 1982 Mercedes 300sd
Project#1: 1981 Volvo bertone coupe w/ vw d24t or d24+t
Project#2: 1976 dodge ramcharger 4x4 w/ ctd
Project#3: vw cabriolet turbodiesel (still in planning stage)

Reply #14February 06, 2012, 10:39:52 pm

theman53

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Re: ultimate-ish 1.6td build?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 10:39:52 pm »
what ever u do i recommend all arp hardware, and doing as much as you possibly can to make the head flow, i believe that is one of the biggest hurdles on these engines, small valves and ***ty port design(mostly on the exhaust side.)  as far was what turbo is good, theres many different ones, depends what you really want and what your power goals are.

My guy said the stock exhaust wasn't that bad. There wasn't much to gain flow wise, maybe different ports all together would make the difference. Here is the flow chart of my head in stock and ported conditions. Intake gained almost 30% and exhaust around 10%.