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Author Topic: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON  (Read 14550 times)

Reply #30February 01, 2012, 02:39:02 pm

maxfax

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2012, 02:39:02 pm »
i me but its still a HUGE car with vacuum control issues..


Although I'd rather have the vac issues in some aspects..  The engine will run sans vacuum..  It will run sans electricity..  Head gaskets rarely fail, timing chains last a long time.. Suspension is pretty durable too (ask me how I know  ;D)

 I ditched a pretty minty caddy many moons ago (after a HG failure no less) for a 300SD, and never looked back..  Yeah It got less mileage, had vac issues, the power windows took a poo a few times times (of course the crank windows took a poo once or twice in the caddy  ::)).. But the damned thing always remained driveable.. I drove it 300 miles with a dead alt, part of that with wipers and lights on... Had a major vac system meltdown 2 states away and still drove it home, just had to pop the hood and hit the manual shut off..  It even managed a 12 miles round trip with no coolant and lived..

I guess what I'm sayin is there isn't much to break on a VW, but what does break is usually necessary..

Now if you wanna talk about the ultimate of diesel cars let's talk GM 5.7   ;D

Reply #31February 01, 2012, 05:04:05 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2012, 05:04:05 pm »
Now if you wanna talk about the ultimate of diesel cars let's talk GM 5.7   ;D

Don't even start.. lmao.

Reply #32February 01, 2012, 08:58:15 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2012, 08:58:15 pm »
Now if you wanna talk about the ultimate of diesel cars let's talk GM 5.7   ;D

Don't even start.. lmao.

if you put a bosch pump on a GM diesel, it would be a good engine..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #33February 02, 2012, 12:49:14 am

maxfax

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 12:49:14 am »
if you put a bosch pump on a GM diesel, it would be a good engine..

I depends which engine we're talking about..  The pump was one of the few good points about the 5.7.. When they decided to put little black boxes on Stanadyne DB pumps such as on the 6.5m things really went to poo..

Reply #34February 02, 2012, 03:21:51 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 03:21:51 pm »
if you put a bosch pump on a GM diesel, it would be a good engine..

I depends which engine we're talking about..  The pump was one of the few good points about the 5.7.. When they decided to put little black boxes on Stanadyne DB pumps such as on the 6.5m things really went to poo..

well, its because they decided to bury it on the back of the pump, down in the valley of the engine..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #35February 02, 2012, 07:42:42 pm

maxfax

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 07:42:42 pm »
well, its because they decided to bury it on the back of the pump, down in the valley of the engine..

That's about 80% of the issue..  The other 20% being that it was a cheapo piece of crap..

Reply #36October 15, 2012, 03:36:54 pm

dennis

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2012, 03:36:54 pm »
I have owned a 85 300TD wagon like the one pictured. The milage does suck. Properly tuned they are not dogs though. I have a 1.6TD caddy and a 245 Volvo that I put a D24T in and the Benz would smoke both of them. If I were to get into another Benz it would be a later 6 cylinder 3.0 TD.  maybe an 87 or so. As for the vacuum controls you just have to tune the turbo, anoroid, and transmission together and they really run well.
1980 Caddy TD (Always in progress)
1983 Volvo 245 D24 NA Building D24T
1980 Air-cooled Westy
1956 F100 (What to do???))

Reply #37October 15, 2012, 07:45:04 pm

diesel smoke

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2012, 07:45:04 pm »
Been about a year and a half since I got my '85 300SD. Still love the car, and have had no major issues. About the only thing I've done to it aside from regular maintenance, is change out the original water pump and V-belts.
'99.5 Bora TDI
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'71 Tin Top Westfalia Bus
'85 Mercedes 300SD

Reply #38October 15, 2012, 09:08:20 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2012, 09:08:20 pm »
I am sad I didnt jump on that.. it was stupid cheap and so clean!

Reply #39October 16, 2012, 10:59:20 am

PeterV

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2012, 10:59:20 am »
And the Hydrolix suspension is a horror to 1. pay for and 2. work on. In their day an interesting car. Today not so much unless you have extra income and willing to part with it. Been there done that. 12 years ago. But it is your decision.

Reply #40October 16, 2012, 12:28:57 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2012, 12:28:57 pm »
Haha nothing is hard to work on. There are set procedures and there is just nuts and bolts to remove. If you look at everything this way, you can accomplish anything. 2 years ago I pretty much knew Jack about the in depth knowledge of these diesels. Now I daily my own entirely hand built M-TDI.. its all easy peasy to me.

Plus doing all the work yourself saves a heap of money.

Reply #41November 24, 2012, 06:26:05 pm

wolf_walker

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2012, 06:26:05 pm »
I've been in and out of Mercedes diesels, and a few gassers over the years inbtween and often while owning A1 and A2 VW diesels, and a gasser Scirocco.
The Mercedes W123/126 is a different animal.  The VW is a small, light, cheap car.  And it shows, for better or for worse.  My 81 had 645K on it and my 82 has 400K, I've had NA's and TD's and now an AAZ that was TD and is now NA.  I've owned a couple TD W123's, couple W126's, one of which was an SDL with the later 3L diesel.
As one might reasonably expect from a car that cost 4x or more what a Rabbit D did, they do cost more to maintain.
Also as one might expect being considerably larger and heavier with considerably more engine power output, they do require more fuel and do not drive like a go-kart.
That being said, every single time I get back in a well sorted old Mercedes, I wonder WTF is wrong with me that I don't drive one every day.
There are no better sedans, or wagons, built in the 80's.  At any price.
Much like a tired rabbit with worn out shift linkage and bad motor mounts and strut mounts and warped rotors, an old Mercedes will be miserable to drive if it isn't well kept.
Much of the negative opinion about handling and acceleration, and to a lesser degree fuel consumption, is from opinions formed of bad examples.
This is much the same as the average car-ish oriented person believing all VW diesels constantly overheat, blow headgaskets, can't keep up with traffic, smoke like crazy, vibrate in the extreme and are generally miserable vehicles to have to operate, with the one redeeming feature being the fuel mileage.
None of these popular generalizations are true when given a good example of either.

Both the W123 and W126 are stunningly GOOD cars.  The brakes are essentially perfect, the handling among it's peers of that era, and even today, is excellent for such a large sedan, and the acceleration of a well tuned OM617, turbo of course, is more than adequate.  My last 83 300D would bark second on dry pavement and had a flat steady acceleration that was very pleasing, and while I never compared a Mercedes to a 1.6L TD, I'd guess off hand that especially at mid and higher speeds, there would be no contest.
I believe the 1.9L AAZ in TD trim would give a good OM617 car a run for it's money however, depending on gearing.  Stock for stock of course.
The Mercedes are a joy to work on all in all, they are extremely serviceable with parts and systems several orders of magnitude beyond what VW had, there are no crappy ill fitting stamped parts on those cars, no gross adjustment to account for production slop, the interior and mechanical parts quality is just overall exactly what one would expect.
Mercedes-Benz used to be Mercedes-Benz for a reason.
The vacuum system, especially pertaining to transmission shifting, is elegant and works well, IF it's in good order.  If it's not it can be adjusted to crutch one along in a usable state for a very long time.  My one regret is that there were not more manual transmission models sold in the US.  It's a real shame as a 4 or 5spd Euro 300D is a different animal all together.  Conversions are possible with 240D parts but it's less than ideal for a number of reasons, and true Euro manual stuff is hard to find.
The hydraulic SLS system works beautifully and is a godsend when you actually USE a wagon like that, you can put any even unreasonable load in that car and it will level up and drive well with it.  Something I missed badly in Volvo wagons I've owned (a few), the Nivomat was never the system it should have been.  Again, this is a system you have to spend a few bucks on every 100K miles or more, not counting filters and fluid changes.  People buy these cars worn out and neglected and then *** and moan about repair costs when they have to catch up ten years of neglected maintenance.  It happens, buy wisely and be reasonable.
They are not as cheap to maintain, but when a given thing is repaired correctly with quality parts it tends to last for a very long time.  And you can actually still get quality parts, the very existence of The Mercedes Classic Center is a testament to the ongoing commitment of the manufacturer, something VAG does not provide in the slightest.
My last one was a 73 280 sedan, W114 chassis, gasser.  If anything I think it handled and braked better than a W123, and was a stunningly attractive old car.  The fuel mileage from the M110 dual cam carb'd six was atrocious, but otherwise as a daily driven forty year old car, original interior and no small number of mechanical parts @ 130K miles or so, it was examplarery. 

I have driven and do drive VW diesels since I was 16 and I'm now 35, I grew up with them.  I love them dearly and know them well.
But they are not in the same class as a Mercedes sedan of that era, nor should they be.
They have there own charms and I have enjoyed and benefited from them for many hundreds of thousands of miles.
I'd damn sure have one of these before some other cheap economy car, but that is essentially what they are.

Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become ignorant.
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Reply #42December 06, 2012, 09:17:45 am

houseofdiesel

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2012, 09:17:45 am »
The fuel economy isn't so bad either...we have over a million kms on one, and another half million on the other beaters we have owned over the years. The can easily approach 40mpg vs 55mpg in a 1.6 td driven the same way. I have seen 45mpg in bone stock high mile form. I am trying to modify and lighten one car to see 50mpg with a Giles built pump.
The Mercedes of the 80s is servicable, meaning EVERYTHING comes apart no rusted fastners, no replacing parts just fix it or rebuild it, the front wheel bearings have nice locking retainers not cotter pins holding them, whatever metal they used for hardware is simply amazing even in my climate and salt use. They are worth keeping on the road. If you don't like maintaining something they are not your cup of tea, every vehicle requires maintanace, some just don't work as well others with neglect. Those Mercedes diesels will be the only thing left running after a serious war or event, zero electronics. The handle so much better then any VW (stock) is it hilarious to drive hard, their weight makes them great winter sleds. I have owned many VW and Mercedes diesels, I always have a Mercedes on the road I refuse to sell all of them! They are also true veg oil engines, injection pump is engine oil lubed. They require slightly more care then a VW, not much more and certain things like brakes were so much better designed you never have to service them, just replace every few years (fixed calipers not floating). I wish they modern ones were built as well as the 30-40 year old stuff...

Reply #43December 15, 2012, 10:10:36 pm

scrounger

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 10:10:36 pm »
Been looking at a 300D wagon for some time. Never could get the owner to sell it even though he doesn't drive it.

We decided on a sedan, mainly because it was available. It is a 85 300D turbo and have had it now for a couple of months. 

At first it was sluggish with an internally leaking EGR and a device that had something like a waste gate on the intake side of the  turbo. It needed certain conditions and rpm to shut it off and let the boost come up. It is a weird antipollution device. You would roll down the road at 55 mph at less than one pound of boost then it would come on and be at 6psi. No way to regulate it between. That is fixed now and the mid range is much stronger in normal driving. Then I made up a boost controller and brought the max boost up from 9 to 14 psi. Something that I plan on doing to my vw.

Here is Benzilla. I have done some body work on it and repainted the quarter panel.


It handles well particularly on rough corners.  So far the best mileage is 32 mpg.
M2 Jetta TD.  Northern Missouri

Reply #44December 31, 2012, 01:06:13 pm

tyb525

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Re: Looking at stepping out of the Volkswagen scene.. MERCEDES TURBOWAGON
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2012, 01:06:13 pm »
I looked at MB diesels briefly before decided on a VW. What turned me away was an older friend of mine who has owned several MBs says the parts are very expensive. Every MB I looked at that I could afford needed some major parts replaced. The ones that were decent were through the roof. Granted some people sell old mk1's for outrageous prices, but I see a few new and then for very good prices, and that's how I found mine.

I suppose it is the same for MBs as it is for VWs, they are more than just a car you drive around, they are a hobby and a passion. If you buy a VW, MB, or any other old diesel, expect to work on it and develop a "relationship" of sorts with it.

There's a reason why not everyone wants to own a 20-30 year old car, even if it gets 40mpg ;) We probably wouldn't do it either if we didn't have this strange love for them.
2004 Golf BEW, '81 1.6 NA rabbit (soon to be parted out)