Got a new 10mm injection pump.. couple questions?

[BillyWillicker]

That is a very nice pump to recase for a VW.  This, I would do...

 Use VW case.
 Add cold start advance, with VW advance piston and spring/shims.
 Keep mechanical shutoff.
 Use ENTIRE VW governor assembly, shaft, weights, springs, etc. Also turn gov. shaft 1/4 to 1/2 turn in. from previous setting.
 Compare boost pin/spring and use whichever can get you the stiffest spring/least preload/most travel for      the smoothest transition into and across boost range.
 Use 1.6l delivery valves/pipes/130bar injectors.
 Shim plunger return springs .010-.020" for higher RPM

After you have it all assembled, time as you have been.  You prolly know the rest of the game and prolly also have figured on all of the above.  Also I make no guarantees on the durability of your engine running the pump described but it aughtta be a pretty hot pump.

[R.O.R-2.0]

i was gonna just drill my bracket to accept the pump body as it is..

was also gonna take the top off the pump, and shim the governor.

why do i need the VW advance piston/springs/shims? whats better about it? the Pug spring should be softer, its a lower RPM motor..

why do i need the WHOLE VW GOVERNOR? i dont really wanna mess with the actual governor weights and all that stuff..
whats the advantage of the VW governor ASSY over the Pug assy?

why would i want to shim the advance return spring? everyone is raving about going to SOFTER springs.. shimming it will make it stiffer, and limit the travel even more, if im thinking correctly..

[BillyWillicker]

The pump build I outlined will be a great, tuneable to a VW 1.6l TD, rather than tuning a 2.3l lower RPM set up pump to match the characteristics of a 1.6l higher rpm engine.  The mods described will make the pump tuned to the characteristics of the engine it will be installed on. 

If you keep it as it is it will never work exactly how you want, though it will probably work OK.  If you put it together as outlined it will be easily tuned how you want.

Also I meant to shim the injection plunger return springs, not the advance piston spring, it will allow higher RPM.

People act like 'OH MY GOD!!  Its an injection pump!  I'm scared of it!!!'  Just try it out as is.  If the snout won't mount a VW sprocket your kinda obligated to take it apart, it looks like it wont take one.  If it dont work out, try something new.  These pumps are very tuneable and easy to adjust.  The bosch books are out there and explain how all the functions work, and are adjusted. 

[BillyWillicker]

Yes, do the Gov. Mod,

WHY #1 - The VW advance springs/piston/shims work for a VW, the PUG will put in too much advance too early and not enough later.

WHY #2 - The VW governor weights/shaft/springs work for a VW, the PUG will pull fuel too much too early, you will never get the revs you want

WHY #3 - Oops, I meant plunger return springs. 

Also the softer advance springs people rave of work, but they are using softer VW springs aren't they?  Higher RPM will be had with more advance and stronger plunger return springs, more advance is gained from trimming the advance piston and advance rod channel.

Advice freely given and not spitefully revoked from the forum either.

[burn_your_money]

and what do you mean about the "characteristics of the head and rotor"?? the car it was in, also has 130bar injectors. could i be safe to assume that the PUG timing spec would be safe to use on my engine as a base point? im also running 130bar injectors at the moment. would i benefit any from using 155's with this pump?

also, theres no cold start advance on the pump.. thinking i should add one, correct?

You would basically have to tear the whole pump down to add a cold start advance so I wouldn't bother, unless you actually find you need it.

by "characteristics" I mean things like the various fuel channels Bosch seems to randomly put in different pumps, the style of the spill port, the offset of the fill port in relation to the high pressure discharge ports and many other things that Bosch doesn't elaborate on.

I think you will have to just play around and see.

[R.O.R-2.0]

and what do you mean about the "characteristics of the head and rotor"?? the car it was in, also has 130bar injectors. could i be safe to assume that the PUG timing spec would be safe to use on my engine as a base point? im also running 130bar injectors at the moment. would i benefit any from using 155's with this pump?

also, theres no cold start advance on the pump.. thinking i should add one, correct?

You would basically have to tear the whole pump down to add a cold start advance so I wouldn't bother, unless you actually find you need it.

by "characteristics" I mean things like the various fuel channels Bosch seems to randomly put in different pumps, the style of the spill port, the offset of the fill port in relation to the high pressure discharge ports and many other things that Bosch doesn't elaborate on.

I think you will have to just play around and see.

so, if i want CS advance, i have to pull the pump apart and swap the VW advance piston in?

and what do you think tyler? should i re-case it, or just leave it a whole Pug pump, and do the gov mod, shimming the governor solid.. it shouldnt matter what governor it has in it, if it has the gov mod, right? the gov mod effectively removes the governor, right? thats how i understand it..

and Billy, i had never thought of shimming the plunger springs.. that will effectively raise the RPM ceiling of the pump.. it will have more pressure from the springs to keep the cam plate from skipping on the rollers..

[BillyWillicker]

Yea, RPM ceiling, shimmed, sure...  

Also the gov mod does not remove the governor, it only delays its onset and "artificially" raises the rpm ceiling.

You got lucky with that PUG pump, it has ALL the parts to build up the ultimate VW IDI pump.  If I had those parts that's what I would do. 
See what burn_your_money says, ask a few more ppl too, get as many opinions as you can. 

[burn_your_money]

You can open up the engine side of the advance and see what style piston the pump has. Most likely it will be flat like the TDI ones. That one would require tearing down the pump to make work with a CS lever. If it has the metal bar going across it then you just need to find the proper advance mechanism. I think the VW pumps alone have 3 different styles.

It's a lot easier to drill 2 holes and mount up the pump then to recase it. I'd start with that and see how it goes. You'll probably need to swap on the VW rear plate to the pump head. Hopefully the head has the proper holes for mounting it.

Like BillyWillicker said, you will likely have issues with the advance, although if the pump is worn it may actually work out for your benefit. And you might even like the advance coming in faster. You'll have to try it with a keen ear and a close eye on the EGTs and see what happens.

I think you will be alright just shimming the governor. Depending how much you shim it you could be raising the RPM to like 10 000 RPM, which you'll never hit (hopefully). If you shim it solid, then yes, there is no max RPM governor.

If you do recase it, make sure to get an old pump housing that has the same style of gov shaft (reverse thread) If you get a newer housing make sure that the shaft is the same and use the one for the housing.

[BillyWillicker]

OK, wait....  Modding the pump mount provisions to accommodate a different pump is easier than mounting a stock case pump? 

[burn_your_money]

Drilling 2 holes vs taking 2 whole pumps apart and swapping it over? Sounds way easier to me

[8v-of-fury]

Are we talking of shimming the springs that reside where my red marks are? Sorry for the crap picture, cellphone.. i wasn't gonna get the camera dirty.. .



If so, then how much shimming are we talking? I would be interested in being able to try this and having the pump be able to sustain higher fueling  capabilities.

[R.O.R-2.0]

Drilling 2 holes vs taking 2 whole pumps apart and swapping it over? Sounds way easier to me

me too.. clamp the pump to the bracket, drill 2 new holes, weld nuts on back side, bolt on pump, time, start.

that sounds ALOT easier than tearing down 2 whole pumps. the only parts pumps i have, need pump shaft bushings..

this PUG pump needs nothing AFAIK

and yes, it has a FLAT advance piston. i was a bit sad when i popped it open and saw that..

it also has a blue (or black) timing advance spring..

and FWIW, the VW rear bracket should bolt right up no problems.. the rear of the head has the same holes/mounts as a VW..

and Billy, the governor weights act on the governor springs.. if there are no governor springs to compress, i dont care what governor weights are in the pump, the governor will be disabled.. shimmed solid means exactly that.. governor springs shimmed solid, or almost solid..

[BillyWillicker]

Yes, shimming a few mm's out of a device that travels a few mm's can disable it. 

I have experience with high strung turbo gas cars, I like the way power is delivered - all balls until the rev limit.  A diesel governor is very different that it gradually rolls the power back.  I am working at a governor setup that will act like a gasser rev limiter, that way there is still a safety measure in place and anyone who else who NEEDS to use my car can without a training course on how to not destroy the engine and still enjoy driving it.  I think that if all diesels were made this way they would be far more popular with the general public.

Anyways, back on topic, I can donate a pump housing with the parts you would need if you like, I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it has good shaft bushings in it, if not, I could replace them.

[R.O.R-2.0]

Yes, shimming a few mm's out of a device that travels a few mm's can disable it. 

I have experience with high strung turbo gas cars, I like the way power is delivered - all balls until the rev limit.  A diesel governor is very different that it gradually rolls the power back.  I am working at a governor setup that will act like a gasser rev limiter, that way there is still a safety measure in place and anyone who else who NEEDS to use my car can without a training course on how to not destroy the engine and still enjoy driving it.  I think that if all diesels were made this way they would be far more popular with the general public.

Anyways, back on topic, I can donate a pump housing with the parts you would need if you like, I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure it has good shaft bushings in it, if not, I could replace them.

my governor acts exactly as a gasser would.. pulls clear till the rollers start skipping..

[8v-of-fury]

I can pull the needed 57-5800 rpms in 1st through 4th gears to get the rollers skipping. It stops injecting immediately and power just cuts off.

Much like a gasser would when rev limiter is hit. Also my governor is no longer a spring, but a solid piece.