Building an M-TDI pump

[danster]

Cheers for confirming that broken springs has been heard of before.

Stripped the 1Y1.9 IDI pump today and the springs are a different length. The TDI pump head assembly uses longer springs (34mm) and guide rod pedestals which sit recessed into the iron pump head when compared to the 1Y IDI pump head arrangement which used 30mm springs and shorter rods that sit on the surface of the pump head.

I will get in touch with a local diesel pump specialist this week and see what I can turn up.

[8v-of-fury]

http://rothengine.com/M-TDIUpgradePackage.aspx

If I get this kit (yah I know prothe..) and put it in my 1.6 TD pump, put my 10mm tdi rotor on it, and then bolt this to the tdi motor. Will it be effective?

There has to be about 3421 threads about making an M-tdi pump. None of them conclusive. All of them have missing posts, misinformation, and cockfights over who is right.

I want to make the most simple M-tdi pump known to man. And from my readings, a 1.6TD pump with this cam plate and spring kit, and a tdi 10mm rotor. Bolt it all together, strap it to the engine (who needs precise mounting holes) and bobsyourseconduncle, you've got a running M-TDI. Doing it this way would seem to retain stock 1.6td throttle, mechanical advance mechanism (cold start lever), and governer assembly. No?

Is this the bare bones M-TDI swap? 

[8v-of-fury]

Hows about this? http://www.rothengine.com/Product.aspx?RebuiltMTDIPump.htm

$350... hot damn.

[410]

Hows about this? http://www.rothengine.com/Product.aspx?RebuiltMTDIPump.htm

$350... hot damn.

You already have everything you need for a barebones pump.  If you put the 10mm head and rotor assembly, springs, camplate, advance spring and cap in your 1.6td pump, it will run a tdi.  Just use the injection pump bracket that matches the pump body.  Your 1.6td ip bracket will bolt right up to the tdi.  You lose the small idler pulley that's on the tdi bracket but it's not a big deal.  And that pump that you listed will have chinese made parts for sure.  You already have all the genuine bosch parts you need make your own bare bones mtdi pump. 

[danster]

I am picking up another TDI pump soon to get the parts I need to replace the broken spring in my current one.

The TDI pumps use two piece rollers for the camplate to run on. They are the same dimensions as the single piece ones used in the IDI pump I have, I presume the two piece setup is to cope with the more aggressive camplate in the TDI. Possibly helps keep the rollers rotating with the increased force generated by the steeper cam profile.

Much as there seems to be a lot of posts on MTDI pump building as mentioned above, some are still very relevant. The K and KF settings have to be checked or damage could occur.
I think a lot of the fuzzy info comes from the fact there are just so many variations of the oem pumps fitted over the years and different continents. So one aspect that is relevant to one type of pump build, is not on another.

In Euroland we have the Landrover Discovery TDI pump. I read somewhere that the camplate in these does not have the same lift as the VW TDI. It is also off a far heavier and slower running engine, so presume the advance curve would not be ideal when fitted directly to the smaller VW engine.

[8v-of-fury]

Hows about this? http://www.rothengine.com/Product.aspx?RebuiltMTDIPump.htm

$350... hot damn.

You already have everything you need for a barebones pump.  If you put the 10mm head and rotor assembly, springs, camplate, advance spring and cap in your 1.6td pump, it will run a tdi.  Just use the injection pump bracket that matches the pump body.  Your 1.6td ip bracket will bolt right up to the tdi.  You lose the small idler pulley that's on the tdi bracket but it's not a big deal.  And that pump that you listed will have chinese made parts for sure.  You already have all the genuine bosch parts you need make your own bare bones mtdi pump. 

So I will retain all the 1.6 throttle and governor setup? It will power the TDI to within stock TDI power specs? 90hp/150tq?

[R.O.R-2.0]

Hows about this? http://www.rothengine.com/Product.aspx?RebuiltMTDIPump.htm

$350... hot damn.

Can you say PROTHE?!

you know better Jeremy.. lol.

[410]

[quote

So I will retain all the 1.6 throttle and governor setup? It will power the TDI to within stock TDI power specs? 90hp/150tq?
[/quote]
Yes, you will retain the 1.6 throttle and governor setup and it should be no problem to get 90hp with this setup.  Start up and idling will be fine as well.  The static timing has to be bumped up a little though.  I would try 1.2 mm for starters.  Once you're ready for more power just let me know and I'll help you with the next step.

[8v-of-fury]

Can you say PROTHE?!

you know better Jeremy.. lol.

I have good luck with sketchy people

Yes, you will retain the 1.6 throttle and governor setup and it should be no problem to get 90hp with this setup.  Start up and idling will be fine as well.  The static timing has to be bumped up a little though.  I would try 1.2 mm for starters.  Once you're ready for more power just let me know and I'll help you with the next step.

410, thank-you so much. The TDI is sitting as a complete lump in my garage. Hook up the battery cables and fuel lines and it will run status. I had it running this June on the stand, and revving up with the pedal sensor. So its all still good.

IS there any difference to the internals of an late mk2 N/A pump and a late mk2 TD pump? Other than the pump top/lid? Reason being, I have my TD pump on my n/a 1.6 now in my daily car (which will be getting the TDI) and it has a n/a top on it. If I could do the work to another pump and not have to have my car off the road for too long would be good. Can I use a 1.6 na pump with the tdi internals and 1.6 td top?

So here is my plan of attack.

• Get the TDI to TDC, Lock the cam (is there a cam lock?) and remove the belt
• Remove the injector lines
• Remove the pump and its bracket
• Remove the mk1 gasser mount I installed to make way for the 1.6 engine/pump mount combo
• Take apart the TDI pump
• Take apart a junker pump for reference and fitment of pieces
• Plan a weekend soon where I will have my car off the road to do all the necessary work to it

Is it really as simple as take it apart and put other parts in? If so why does this method not pop up more frequently? Just a simple bare bones mechanical TDI?

[410]

These pumps come apart fairly easily.  Getting the pump back together is a little trickier.  I've used two methods to make this easier.  I use vasoline to hold the springs in place while I install the head and I've also used parafin wax to do the same thing.  The first time I reassembled a pump I installed the head and springs first then tried to install the governor lever into the pump last.  It can be done this way because I did manage to do it but it was brutal.  It's best to install the head and springs last with the pump standing up on its timing gear.

Inside the 1.6 pump there is a 'cross' with a spring near the camplate.  The tdi pump will have a similar 'cross' but no spring.  Make sure you use the cross from the tdi pump and don't use the spring.  You should also be able to use a 1.6na pump with a 1.6td top as long as the governor levers are the same.  I can't say for sure because I've never had an na pump apart.  The only difference I can think of is no tap on the governor lever for the lda control which is no big deal.

[8v-of-fury]

Can a 1999 FREELANDER 2-0 XDI fuel pump be used?

[1579]

Hey guys,

I just found this thread and I have some questions about building my MTDI pump.

So far, I have removed the head, 9mm plunger and camplate from my AAZ injection pump and I swapped in the TDI head, camplate and 10mm plunger. I thought I got it all right however I have two small springs left over and I think they came out of the AAZ pump. They look like this and I'm worried that they should have gone back in my Franken aaz/ahu pump.


Are these springs needed when running the ahu tdi camplate, springs plunger and head in the aaz pump?


Here they are again next to some other springs


And heres's my mtdi pump, minus those two springs pictured above that I'm not sure about. Note the AHU tdi in the background.



Hey 410, the advance spring and cap you're talking about, do you have a picture of those... I have not swapped them into my aaz pump nor heard much about swapping them in.

Thanks,
Brandon

[410]

Hi branden,
I think the springs in your pic are for the governor lever which are needed.  They fit between the head and the governor lever and you need some vasolene or wax to hold them in place.  For the advance spring and cover, you can use the aaz spring and cover setup.  The aaz pump uses a two spring advance system which is very smooth and works really well.  You can use the tdi spring and cover plate from the ahu pump as well.  This is the only picture I have of the side of the pump showing the advance spring cover.

Take the two bolts out and the spring and shims come right out.  You will also have to change the advance piston which requires taking the pump apart a fair ways.

[jimfoo]

I used this method of holding the springs in place.

[410]

Nice idea Jimfoo.  I used vasolene to hold the springs which worked quite well and I've also melted wax to hold the springs in as well.  The first pump I reassembled I actually put the governor lever and springs in after installing the head.  It's possible but barely!