Building an M-TDI pump

[8v-of-fury]

Trust me, I know what your gonna say.. Search is your friend. Yes your right, I am one to search because I know that many have done this before me.

However! all the search items that come up are not as conclusive as I would like them to be. Not only that but they deal with other hardware, mixed opinions, false information, and on some just a complete lack of common sense and any sort of reputable knowledge.

So what I would like this thread to be useful for is helping me figure out exactly what I need to do with the parts I have (if possible), or parts I need to get to make it happen.

THE SCENARIO

I have at my disposal an entire 1998 AHU TDI. I have all the electronics necessary to run the motor out of car, as I have had it running on the stand. I was going to do a full on electronic swap but have found I would much rather build an m-tdi for simplicity sake. I want to take this motor and put it in my 1984 Jetta. I will be putting a 210mm clutch on the motor so it will work with my existing 020 5 speed. Thus making my axles, and spindles usable. Yes I know the 020's are far inferior to that of 02A/02J which is currently mounted to my AHU (may still be swapped in one day ).. but it will be the easiest route to take right now. I am not hard on my vehicles so I feel the old transmission will hold up just fine. There have been some high horsepower 1.8t and 2.0t engines with torque surpassing that of the 150ft.lbs of the AHU.. so I have faith.

THE PARTS

I have 1.6 na pumps, a 1.6 td pump, associated mounts, all you can think of to make this swap happen. Its not the swap itself that i need help with just the m-tdi pump part.

I have the entire tdi pump, a 1.6 TD pump that I want to combine to make the m-tdi pump. Doable?

THE IDEA

Here is a question I have not seen asked in my travels, why can I not just add the 1.6 TD pump top, governor assembly, and throttle shaft to the TDI pump?

What is involved in the using of the 1.6 TD pump body and pump mainshaft, with the DI specific cam plate, plunger, and head? Is it a direct swap in deal? or is there things that need modified to make it all fit together? I would prefer the easiest route here on how I can make this M-tdi pump work for me. I feel it will be most easily achieved through a 1.6 17mm mainshaft with the tdi bits installed. Also if I use the 1.6 pump that way I can mount it to the engine using the original 1.6 engine mounts eh? The part that mounts to the front of the block and the motor/pump integral piece.. atleast in my head that works.

I WOULD LOVE YOUR INPUT ASAP PLEASE AND THANK-YOU!

[410]

"Here is a question I have not seen asked in my travels, why can I not just add the 1.6 TD pump top, governor assembly, and throttle shaft to the TDI pump?

What is involved in the using of the 1.6 TD pump body and pump mainshaft, with the DI specific cam plate, plunger, and head? Is it a direct swap in deal? or is there things that need modified to make it all fit together? I would prefer the easiest route here on how I can make this M-tdi pump work for me. I feel it will be most easily achieved through a 1.6 17mm mainshaft with the tdi bits installed. Also if I use the 1.6 pump that way I can mount it to the engine using the original 1.6 engine mounts eh? The part that mounts to the front of the block and the motor/pump integral piece.. atleast in my head that works."

The answer to your first question is there is the tdi pump body is not machined for the throttle lever, and governor assembly.  That's why you have to put the tdi parts into the 1.6 pump.  The 1.6 pump has a 17mm input shaft and the tdi pump has a 20mm shaft.  Imo you can run a 10mm head and rotor assembly on the smaller 17mm input shaft without any issues. 

I'm sure you've read the faq on building an mtdi pump but the good info doesn't start until page 5 or 6.  User with the name Hey has posted the best info I have come across for building the mtdi pump.  Basically, you can install the tdi camplate, head and rotor assembly with springs and the tdi advance system(piston, spring and cover and pressure regulator) and have a functioning mtdi pump.  If you want to get the full potential out of the pump then you need to modify the throttle lever and the governor lever as per heys instructions.

The finished pump can then be mounted with the original 1.6 pump bracket and pulley. 

[Sierra94]

I run a 12mm head on a 17 mm axle. And the IP now has around 12000 km of inspired driving to it 

[410]

My mtdi pump was built with an 11mm head with the 17mm shaft with over 20,000 km on it now and still going strong. 

[Zeitgeist]

Hi, I recently picked up a 4BT pump for parts, or as a basis for a mTDI build on a 1Z/AHU that will be installed in my '89 Vanagon.  I gather I need to find an LDA and governor from a VW turbo VE pump, and then of course a bunch of internal mods that I'm currently investigating.  The 4BT pump body has a broken off mounting ear and is missing one of the delivery valves.  I have numerous VW NA diesel pumps in my stash, so I'm considering the possibility of surgically removing the corresponding piece of one of those pump ears and then having it TIG'd onto the 4BT and machined down.  Or perhaps I should just pull the 20mm mainshaft and remaining 4BT internals and transplant them into another suitable pump body.  Are the delivery valves interchangeable between various models, e.g. can I just use standard 1.6L NA delivery valves on this 4BT 12mm head?

Thanks,
Casey

[R.O.R-2.0]

Hi, I recently picked up a 4BT pump for parts, or as a basis for a mTDI build on a 1Z/AHU that will be installed in my '89 Vanagon.  I gather I need to find an LDA and governor from a VW turbo VE pump, and then of course a bunch of internal mods that I'm currently investigating.  The 4BT pump body has a broken off mounting ear and is missing one of the delivery valves.  I have numerous VW NA diesel pumps in my stash, so I'm considering the possibility of surgically removing the corresponding piece of one of those pump ears and then having it TIG'd onto the 4BT and machined down.  Or perhaps I should just pull the 20mm mainshaft and remaining 4BT internals and transplant them into another suitable pump body.  Are the delivery valves interchangeable between various models, e.g. can I just use standard 1.6L NA delivery valves on this 4BT 12mm head?

Thanks,
Casey

pretty sure you need delivery valves matched to the pump and injectors.

[Zeitgeist]

I've swapped delivery valves between pumps on Mercedes M-Pumps, and that's worked fine.  I'm wondering if I need to use TDI delivery valves to match the injectors, which would make sense.

[svenakela]

Over at thesamba.com there's a guy who ran his AHU with a JX 1.6-pump.
I know a few guys  with both JX and AAZ-pumps on TDI engines and the for sure work fine. I assume there's less power, but they are way better than the old JX.

[danster]

Have you made any progress on this 8v of Fury?

Just in the middle of the same sort of thing here. I have stripped an old GM VE pump for practice and worked out how it all goes back together.
So the real deal strip down started and I have just pulled the 1Z TDI pump head............only to find one of the two springs is broken. 

What are the chances of the springs in a 1Y NA IDI pump being the same? I am having a beer to dull the emotions of my broken spring find, I think it would be best not to strip down a 3rd VE pump in the living room this evening. 

[BigVWman]

I think it would be best not to strip down a 3rd VE pump in the living room this evening. 

Of course not, That is what the kitchen is for!

[danster]

Of course not, That is what the kitchen is for!

I have engines in there! 

I think I will just strip the 1Y IDI pump tomorrow and check it out. I am sure the local garage has some other kind of VE pump lying that could be investigated too. That makes 5 pumps in bits, I need counselling for this dub addiction. 

[R.O.R-2.0]

Of course not, That is what the kitchen is for!

I have engines in there! 

I think I will just strip the 1Y IDI pump tomorrow and check it out. I am sure the local garage has some other kind of VE pump lying that could be investigated too. That makes 5 pumps in bits, I need counselling for this dub addiction. 

what possessed you to take apart 4 pumps? do you have a grand plan or something?

[danster]

what possessed you to take apart 4 pumps? do you have a grand plan or something?

First one was just an old unusable pump for an investigation and to see how they are put together. It was scrap anyway so ideal to learn on and not worry about damaging anything.

The TDI pump was for the pump head and camplate. It was never going to be used in an E TDI setup again.

I was looking at the 1Y IDI pump with a view to installing the TDI head on it as it physically fits on the TDI engine I have in my project car.
I have a late AAZ pump with the extra electrical connection that interferes with the advance mechanism so it was no use, but may be a source for the LDA to go on the 1Y pump.

The problem has come up with a broken spring in the TDI head assembly though. The donor car ran fine. Has anyone else come across a broken spring in a pump head before?

You have to strip things to build them again. My race car has had 5 gearboxes stripped to get bits for mine, and it is a 4 speeder! 

[410]

The springs in the aaz pump might be similar to the springs in the tdi pump.  If you can come up with a part # for the spring I bet you could get a set from a bosch dealer for cheap.

[burn_your_money]

Has anyone else come across a broken spring in a pump head before?

It's reasonably common. You can usually hear the pump making some abnormal noises when this happens but not always and you need to know what you are listening for.

You don't need the part number for the spring, just go in with the 10 digit Bosch number for the pump and they can look up the spring for you.