No Fuel Out Checkvalves

[ORCoaster]

Kind of what I thought Andrew.  Been reading this Forum long enough now to kind of know what works and when.  I rigged up the quart bottle off the wife's hanging basket chain from the hood.  Sucker fired right up on the first half turn.  But Wait!

That is all it would do, idle, not one iota of acceleration.  AND no fluid of any kind out the line to the fuel tank on top.  So I figured as long as it is at idle move the IP for a better timing mark.  Just in case it started to do different.

Well I unscrewed the pressure screw up front a tad and punched down the pin hoping to increase the internal pump pressure.  No Change.  So I told my wife I was going to have to take the pump apart to free up the vanes. 

The pump sat in my sons garage for about four years and he said it had "issues" when he sent it to me.  He picked it up from Craigs list back then for about 80 bucks.

So I am going to wait on the place I bought my other parts from.  They should send them this week.  I will rebuild my original pump and hope it works like it is supposed to.  If not then I may take the back end off the second IP from my son and try that on the front of the first.  I know that one has about 65 lbs of internal pressure as  I measured it.

VW's are just like life.  Simple in most respects but complex when things go wrong. 

Thanks for confirm on the stuck vanes.  I feel that just knowing I have learned something from all of you guys makes the breakdown a little less frustrating.  Glad this is the project car.  I was really hoping to have converted it to a true bi-fueler by now.  I am striving for 60 mpg and running on diesel and propane. 

[burn_your_money]

As for the pump with stuck vanes, run it off of biodiesel. You might need to use a lift pump to boost the internal pressure up as well. Expect the pump to leak though. Increasing the internal pump pressure helps to force the vanes out.

Saying that your pump has 65 psi of internal pressure is kind of useless without specifying the RPM. Actually if you have the gauge to measure internal pressure you can check to see if the vanes are good. Sometimes old pumps just need to run a while to free up.

[ORCoaster]

Tyler/burnyobucks,

I actually have two pumps with two different problems.  pump #1 had the problem of not getting fuel pressure up and out the checkvalves.  I sent the back of the pump back to NC, you know, THAT GUY.  but I haven't heard what they will do to replace the part that wasn't working.  I expect an exchange to happen next week or so. 

Pump #2 I received from my son who had a Rabbit and it was converted to run on WVO.  That pump has the stuck vanes as it sat in his garage for some years he says before it came to me.  I have tomorrow off for the long holiday and was thinking of two things.  First that the pump has just been sitting out there with diesel in it for the week now and I might just fire it up and see what happens.  Lord willing it will work like it is supposed to.  If not I shoot the sucker dead to rights and slap a for sale sign on it pronto.  No I couldn't do that?   It is the project car!

So I will most likely try building one pump out of the two and hope it works like it is supposed to. 

The 65 lbs of pressure in pump #1 was measured running at about 850 RPM using the 1/2 drill on the nut on the pulley.  So I am pretty sure that front end is good.  Pump 2 does feed the injectors but only when I feed it from a bottle elevated above the pump.  Otherwise it revs up and dies.  Classic stuck vane behavior.  I would really like to drive this bunny again.  I have all kinds of things changed out on it and I want to see if they work.  Like the back brakes for instance.   They were frozen up solid when I bought it.

I'll resolve this one way or another and let all know.  Lots of these threads seem to die without the conclusion being told.  It's like they fixed the problem and we never know what the outcome was.  Who reads a book and tears out the final chapter so no others can do the same?

Later

[burn_your_money]

If that is the only problem with pump #2 I would hook up a CIS pump to it and run it on bio diesel for a week. I would build that pressure gauge for the outlet so you can keep an eye on when the vanes free up, if they do. I've rebuilt pumps where the vanes seized and I had to use a punch to hammer the vanes out. Those ones went in the scrap pile of course....

If you do try and rebuild a pump I would just use #2 and keep as many as the pieces original to it in that one. Really all you might have to do is change the transfer pump.

[ORCoaster]

Kind of hoping that can be all that I need to do.  I am busy today working on another project but I just had to try and fire that baby up just now.  Kind of a brain break, maybe inspirational time.  So out I go with the hoses, jar and syringe to pull fuel into the pump.  All set, glows plugs cycled, crank, fire, idle....crapa lupa.  Tomorrow is VW pump swap out day for sure now.

Reading that you had to punch the vanes out leaves me little hope that these bad boys are just going to magically unlock themselves by soaking for the last week.  If the front end is that bad I have another much better replacement. 

Will use as much of pump as i can and see what happens.

Thanks for the get back.

Anyone learning anything here besides me?

 

[ORCoaster]

Well,  Now I am really baffled.  I combined what I thought were the two working halves of the two pumps I have and Yes I get fuel to squirt out the checkvalves but again it only idles.  There is a large amount of fuel being pumped through the front end.  I didn't measure the quantity over time but it really was moving the tiny bubbles until they all went away.

So what controls the speed of a rabbit exactly.  If is pressure at the injectors how is it regulated.  I will study the Bosch manual and drawings to see what I can come up with.  But initially I think there is some sort of junk still plugging up the highside of this pump.  When I pulled it apart I noticed a varnish like coating on the inside of the front end and the little collar on the shaft of the splined part of the pump was stuck to the front and I had to work to get it to come free.  Once it was free I didn't have any trouble getting the two pumps to go together. 

Should I clean the checkvalves on this dirty bugger?  Do you think there is something keeping the flow down to a minimum and that is what is keeping it from revving up?

Thinking and looking for answers.  Help a guy out will ya.  What have you used to "boil out the junk" from a VE pump?

Later

[Vincent Waldon]

Here's a pic that may help, in conjunction with Andrew's explanation:

[ORCoaster]

I was studying the one that has the governor operation on it on page 24 of the Bosch VE pump manual that has been posted here before.

Can't seem to cut and paste it as I thought I could from where I am reading it.

As I was reading the various descriptions on the position of the collar at start up, idle, run and noload high RPMs I picked up on the fact that at startup the governor shaft is not pressing on the mechanism until rotations start.  Make sense as the counterweights are doing the work and need to spin.  And I do notice a very slight increase in RPM on startup then it goes into a very low idle.  So low that the Ignition light glows on steady. 

Back to removing the pump and doing another look through.  I think I will check the checkvalves for junk in the lines too.

Later DAS

[burn_your_money]

What happens when you try to rev it up? If it doesn't stall I would be adjusting the throttle and max fuel screw before taking stuff apart.

[ORCoaster]

Max fuel screw all the way in and is the only way I get any idle out of it at all.  With the pump still on the car I guess I should relocate the acceleration arm a notch or so.  It does move the full range of motion and I backed off the set screw all the way so I would get even more movement.  Could the pivot arm under the cap where the governor is be 180 degrees out of alignment?  I guess I best check on that too.

With all of that out of the way I will also see how the collar lines up with the spill hole on the pump shaft.  It seems that is the problem and the fuel is just being dumped out back into the low pressure side of the pump.

Was a little wet and rainy out this morning and without a garage I choose to do other things that have jumped from the pan to the fire.


Thanks for thinking with me on this.  Many heads make more possibilities.

[ORCoaster]

Will do, sure beats the remove the pump option.  Engine will not REV at all.  Just a very faint increase at startup then down to a low RPM rumble that is just short of stalling.  No Smoke out the back and no matter what I do to get the engine to increase speed, sorry RPMs, speed is movement of a different sort, nothing happens.

Thanks for the description above Andrew and I will let ya all know what comes of it.

[ORCoaster]

ARRRRGGGGHHHH It is really getting to me now.

I did the check on the accel arm.  Perfect as far as I can tell.  Just took it apart and tried the counterclockwise turn and the index mark was right there where the tension was gone and I could feel the governor starting to kick in.  I took a pair of pliers and slowly turned the shaft like I was using the arm and it came right back to where it was initially. 

Step two, took the top off since it was mostly apart anyway.  Got out my trust 2 inch compact mirror and shined the sunshine down into the area where the collar is located.  All looked fine there all parts moving.  Could not see the spill hole as it was out of view.

On to step three.  Just yank that pump outta that stinking Rabbit!  Tore the backend off and could not see any problems with check valves, or anything else.  I did swap out the cam plate for the other one I had just to be sure I changed something with all the work I have into it today.

Slapped it back together and ??
Yep, just ran at idle.  No faster. 

Do you think that I need to adjust the governor shaft in some way?  With the combining of two different pumps does that sound like the problem?  How do I adjust that screw.  I know that the thread on there with lefthanded threads but do I take the shaft all the way in to bump the lever inside just barely then back it off a few turns or what?

Seems I read that it comes back 3 mm from the touchpoint or something like that.

There isn't that much mechanical going on in these things.  How can it be this crazy?

More suggestions please.

I did get started on cleaning out the front of the one pump this evening.  Man it is like someone varnished the insides.  The vanes were stuck, yeah really goopped in there.  Some Seafoam, brake cleaner and then a wipe with diesel and they slide like new.  I will rebuild the pump with all its original parts and see if that is the ticket to getting acceleration back. 

I think there must be something wrong with the governor assembly on the pump I am using.  Everything else seems to check out.

Later DAS

[burn_your_money]

Do you have a camera? Can you take a bunch of pictures of pump in it's varying states that you have it in?

What did you time the pump to?

[ORCoaster]

Yes, have camera.  What do you want to see?  Mechanically it all looks solid.  Was thinking swapping the governor mechanism from pump 2 into pump 1 as it is still on the car and was running at idle.  When it is running I can shift the pump front to back to find the smooth spot at that rpm.  At one time I did measure it to be real close to .9 and the sticker on the wheel well says to time to .88. 

So I don't think timing is an issue here but hey I'm taking all the advice I can so let me know what it is you want in the way of pics and I pop and post a few. 

later

[rallydiesel]

Sometimes the sleeve that rides on the governor shaft seizes
on and it will prevent the pump from increasing fuel. Basically nullifies the throttle arm. Is that sleeve able to slide freely back and forth?