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Author Topic: Sway bars  (Read 4872 times)

Reply #15April 08, 2010, 01:00:23 am

Runt

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 01:00:23 am »
sway bars lessen body roll, thats it. they dont make it ride any harsher or softer, least they shouldnt.
Not sure if you were replying to me or not, but my question was:
Can you tell if the sway bar/tube actually makes a difference?  Does the car with it ride flatter than the car without?  (I'm assuming that both cars have the front bar.)
Note I said flatter, not stiffer.  I've commented (in the thread that I spun this question out of, i  think) that I had aset of used H&Rs for now, and am going coil-overs as soon as I can get my cheap/poor hands on a set that I am sure will meet my needs.  I do agree with Truckinwagen that at extremes the swaybars will affect ride quality, and I will probably approach that extreme myself.  However, stiffness is not my goal, just roll control.  I like the go kart feel. ;D  Besides, when the car wallows around, the wife wants me to slow down, in my old 1 ton Suburban (Massive front, moderate rear bars) I could go as fast as I liked, because she didn't feel like she was going to fall or rollover of the edge of the road.   ;)
One DD 92 Jetta, One 91 Collision write-off, and One 92 rust free shell, beautiful, stripped, waiting for diesel-ization.

Reply #16April 10, 2010, 01:58:11 am

mystery3

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 01:58:11 am »
Can anyone share their experiences on caddies?

I pulled a thick front bar off of a cabby a while back and am still in search of a suitable rear bar. I think I'll install the front bar when I replace the front suspension and worry about the rear when I find something.

Why do most fwd cars come from the factory with front bars and no rear? Just to accentuate the understeer most people are accustomed to?

Reply #17April 10, 2010, 06:56:38 am

stewardc

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 06:56:38 am »
Caddy
  Get a lower K brace off a Scirocco, and a good top strut brace. These tie the wobbly front end together. Then add a front bar from a GTI and an aftermarket rear bar if you wish (front makes the most difference). The difference is amazing.

Reply #18April 10, 2010, 04:18:57 pm

mystery3

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 04:18:57 pm »
That's what I was hoping to hear, I have the neuspeed upper bar installed and the eurosport 4 point lower tie bar to be installed with new control arms, sway bar, struts etc.

While on the topic of caddy suspension and other mkI and mkII would widening the rear to match the track width of the front using spacers be poor for the suspension geometry of a fwd car?

Reply #19April 11, 2010, 01:10:30 am

Runt

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 01:10:30 am »
First, I am no expert on Caddys, I've worked on a couple, but not yet found one in my price range.
That said, I can speak in general terms.  Generally, widening the track increases the cornering forces generated, and the maximum cornering force available before the vehicle becomes unstable.  This is where a significant benefit can be had by swapping mk3 suspension into a mk2.  The track width is increased by over an inch, iirc.  However, this is normally done front and rear together.  Widening just the rears of your caddy would increase the rear grip and forces, therefore causing your car to understeer more than it currently does.  If it's anything like any of my rabbit/golf/jettas, the last thing you need is MORE understeer.  FWIW, I also really don't like spacers.  They have a nasty habit of allowing wheels to work loose, which is a really unpleasant experience.  Even worse when your wife calls to say that 'the wheel just fell off the truck, it's on the side of the highway, and three of the bolts are broken'! :o  Also, the add to the stresses that are borne by those little rear wheel bearings, by moving the wheel centerline outside of the bearing centers, and setting up a twisting force.  If you really wanted to widen the rears, I'd reccomend actually widening the axle beam itself.  However, I would only do this if you were matching to a widened front.
One DD 92 Jetta, One 91 Collision write-off, and One 92 rust free shell, beautiful, stripped, waiting for diesel-ization.

Reply #20April 11, 2010, 11:59:43 pm

mystery3

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 11:59:43 pm »
The caddy does not understeer nearly as much as regular rabbits but it still leans heavily in that direction.

I've run spacers without problems in the past but have heard horror stories like yours. I think the key is quality hardware and torque!

I'd just like the caddy's rear to be somewhat closer to the track width of the front but I have a lot of suspension work to do in the meantime so maybe I'll look at widening whilst installing a rear sway to try to find some balance.

Thanks for the info.

Reply #21May 21, 2010, 12:15:52 am

mystery3

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 12:15:52 am »
I have an idea I'd like to run by the folks here whom in general are smarter than I.

To overcome the issue of interference between the stock a1 sway bar setup and the diesel fuel lines near the rear control arm bushings would it be possible to make a spacer to move the bracket which holds the rear control arm bushing down to clear the fuel line? I don't know a lot about suspension geometry. My car is not super low so a 1/2" spacer to move the control arm closer to the ground wouldn't invert my arms or anything like that. Is this a horrible idea? Or not thought through far enough?

Reply #22May 27, 2010, 06:49:47 pm

Runt

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2010, 06:49:47 pm »
Again, my knowledge of the caddy is not great, but I'll give this a go.  If I understand correctly, you are asking about dropping the rear bushing for the front control arm, where it attaches to the main structure?  This would result in the lower control arm being lower at the rear than at the front, and having less slope down (towards the ball joint), correct?
If so, this is not a great idea, for a couple of reasons, but is probably doable, if you had to, and did it right, and checked on it periodically.  I see three issues:
Least important: the change in lower control arm angle is effectively only half of the amount you drop the bushing, as long as you do only one of the two bushings.  As such it is a relatively minimal change, but you may experience a little more bumpsteer tendency, and your dynamic camber behaviour may be slightly less than ideal.  Neither of these is really worth worrying about for your 1/2" spacer.
More important:  changing the angle of the control arm in the longitudinal plane is sometimes done with double a-arms to create or reduce anti dive (under braking) or anti squat (under acceleration).  Without having really looked at your geometry (and re-read some books that I haven't looked at in 15 years) I dare not even guess what effect this might have.  If there was an effect, once you factor in torquesteer, things may get a little weird.  I'd class this as a try it and see kind of thing, but it may be an issue.
Most important: those lower control arms secure the spindles, which hold the wheels to the car.  Any modification you make may reduce the reliability of that attachment, and therefore reduce your safety.  Any type of spacer would require an alignment pin of some sort, IMHO.  Simple through-bolts would not be adequate in my opinion, as the spacer would act as a washer to allow the busing to slide, flexing the through bolt side to side, possibly leading to a stress fracture (failure) of the through bolt.  And (at least on my A2), when the rear lower control arm bolt breaks/falls out, the car does some really wierd torque/brake steering.  Don't ask me how I know, I just know!
So to summarize, you could probably try it, but put lots of time into designing the spacer with some sort of positive location, to ensure no movement, and be sure to select top quality attachment hardware for the through bolts, or if you are trying to reuse the factory bolts, dust them with paint, tighten them to 1/2 of recommended torque, and remove them to check that you have adequate thread engagement.
One DD 92 Jetta, One 91 Collision write-off, and One 92 rust free shell, beautiful, stripped, waiting for diesel-ization.

Reply #23May 28, 2010, 12:56:14 am

mystery3

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2010, 12:56:14 am »
Thanks for the detailed reply obviously from an engineering background of some sort! Having laid about looking at the interference issue I think the answer is probably to remove a piece of the hardline and replace/reroute with viton.

If I was to build a spacer(s) I think the way to go would be to space both the front and rear or the contol arm to maintain the largest amount of normal geometry as possible.

Reply #24May 28, 2010, 03:12:04 pm

rabbitman

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Re: Sway bars
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2010, 03:12:04 pm »
You'd also have to space both sides evenly or the sway bar would constantly "sway" the car to the left.
'82 Rabbit, I put on a euro vnt-15, 2.25" DP, 2.5" exhaust, the result.....it whistled.

I removed the turbo, made a toilet bowl 2.5" DP, the result....it was deafening. Now it has a homemade muffler up front and a thrush in the rear, the result.....less loud.
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