Re torquing head bolts after 1000 miles?

[tkisling]

I bought an 81 Rabbit with the 1.6 na diesel and the man I bought it from said the head bolts needed to be re tightened after 1000 miles as he had replaced the head gasket and timing belt. I was wondering what special socket/tool I need to tighten the head bolts. It has the 11mm head bolts. Where can I order the socket/tool I need?

[theman53]

11mm should not be retorqued, unless they used some sort of 11mm stretch bolt. I thought that the 11mm stretch was only for gassers though. If it is an 11mm hex bolt it isn't a torque to yeild and shouldn't be touched after initial if I remember correctly. Check the bentley for proper spec, but it doesn't sound right.

[rs899]

My memory differs from yours- I think the re-torque has to do with the gasket not the bolts and is also required on the 11mm.  And, IIRC it spooked me so much when I last did it , I am going to conveniently forget to do it on the "new" Jetta (actually I already have...)

The 11mm head bolts should be standard six-sided hex.  If they are not, you need a triple square 12mm bit.  Autozoo used to have them, but now they seem to have nothing more than wax and oil.  If you do have a triple square bolt on an 11mm head something is not kosher- you need to find out from the PO if these are stretch bolts from a gasser...if you want to torque them at all.  If I were you, it it doesn't leak, don't mess with it...IMO.

Rick

[theman53]

Yeah what I remember reading *6 or 7 years ago* was the hex 11mm bolts were tightened to a torque. Then after 1,000 miles loosened and torqued again, but not more than the original value. But it has been a while and I never did end up doing the 11mm head gasket job.

[tkisling]

Ok, well, I gotta find the guys number. But other than that I guess I'll just leave it alone unless I see white smoke.

[Baron VonZeppelin]

One of the 11mm X-Berts on here is maxfax.
You can look up his user info and email, or PM him.

Haven't seen him post since I came back on recently.
But surely he still lurkes about 

Where is do you be at Maxwell ?

[rs899]

The 1982 Bentley I have that covers both types of bolts says after 1000 miles:

Regular (non-stretch) bolts- loosen each bolt by 30 degrees, then retorque to 66 ft lbs.

Stretch bolts- do not loosen- tighten each bolt 1/4 turn WITHOUT HESITATION .

Knowing what we do now about 11mm blocks, I, for one, would not retorque.  I think you would be asking for it.  I am even on the fence about retorquing my 12mm block....my 2 pfennigs.

Rick

[JerryGTD]

According to this VW maintenace booklet insert, it is not necessary to retorque the 12mm head bolts after 1,000 miles, at least on this model engine.  

[JerryGTD]

That bulletin is highly ambiguous.  Are they saying that the re-torque can wait until 7500 miles which is the first service interval?  Are they saying that the re-torque is not necessary from the factory?  One thing that they are conspicuously *not* saying is that the 1,000 mile re-torque is not necessary after changing the head gasket and bolts.

I concur. That bulletin is highly ambiguous.  Is VW willing to gamble that the head gasket will not blow before the first 7,500 mile service?  Do they re-torque at the 7,500 service?

 "Are they saying that the re-torque is not necessary from the factory?"

I highly doubt that they would want the owner to bring the vehicle back to the VW factory in Wolfsburg Germany for a head bolt re-torque. 

"One thing that they are conspicuously *not* saying is that the 1,000 mile re-torque is not necessary after changing the head gasket and bolts. "

I do not think that the intent of this bulletin was to inform VW mechanics of the "proper" procedure for changing a head gasket but was merely to inform the owner of when Maintenance was needed. Thus the words "Insert for Volkswagen Maintenance Booklet 1991/92 Models".

Take note that this is what was printed in the original 1991 Maintence booklet:

[JerryGTD]

From here:

Are they saying that the re-torque is not necessary from the factory? 

= Highly ambiguous comment.  Your wording, not mine.

"I was commenting that the bulletin could be construed as saying that the vehicle as delivered "from the factory". 

Ah I see now. As if the vehicle would be delivered from someone other than "the factory" . Uh, duh. Isn't that a given? 

[maxfax]

My 2 cents..  Typically I don't get to it at 1000 miles, usually ends up being the first oil change after a HG swap..  But, on 11mm engines I don;t loosen anything, just set the wrench to the spec and recheck the torque on the bolts with the engine warm to hot..  Mostly just to see how the block fared I suppose..   Usually I gain a slight bit on them..  If they turn a significant amount I start to worry...

[JerryGTD]

Wow, dude, take the troll mask off and put the thinking cap on please...

Your posting of the bulletin and your words with it, "According to this VW maintenace booklet insert, it is not necessary to retorque the 12mm head bolts after 1,000 miles, at least on this model engine," would give the impression that you believe that VW dispensed with the required 1,000 mile re-torque requirement for the head bolts even after a head gasket and bolt replacment.  I don't get that impression from the bulletin and I think its an error in logic to assume that is what they meant.  My statement is not ambiguous.  The condition that the engine arrives "from the factory" is an easily comprehended distinction that would mean when the engine is "new" (similar descriptions would be "factory new" or "brand new", etc), as opposed to after a head gasket replacement torque procedure.  I made that distinction to contrast the two possible situations of head bolt torque procedures, "from the factory" (a situation that probably hasn't occurred for anyone with a '91 in almost twenty years) and "after a head gasket replacement" or even a rebuilt engine that was not "from the factory".  Get it??  You do not know what they do to the engines at the factory prior to installation.  They may very well run them through some break-in procedures at the factory that eliminate the necessity for any additional torque procedure for the head bolts and yet the re-torque procedure would still be necessary after the replacement of the head gasket.  They may also be saying that the re-torque can wait until the normal 7,500 service interval.  I doubt there are any people on this forum who give a flying fig about whether or not the head bolts needed a re-torque when the vehicle only had 1,000 miles on it, however I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in knowing whether or not to re-torque the bolts 1,000 miles after a head gasket change.  Because of that, the posting of an ambiguous bulletin that only applied to when the car was "new", "brand new" or "from the factory" strikes me as both irrelevant and misleading.  How many folks here do you think have a '91 car with less than 1,000 miles on it?? 

Wow, Brah, dude, man, dudeman or whatever you want to be called by.

Your arguement has more holes in it than a golf course.

"If there are two ways to interpret something I say and one of them gets your knickers in a twist, then I meant the other one." Words to live by and not just preach.

"According to this VW maintenace booklet insert, it is not necessary to retorque the 12mm head bolts after 1,000 miles, at least on this model engine,." Yes, that is what I wrote. Why? because that is what is written on the Maintenance bulletin. This is a discussion forum and in America we are free to discuss and not feel bullied by others. That is less ambiguous than what you just wrote: "Are they saying that the re-torque is not necessary from the factory?" Again, I did not say this. You did. Fail.

You wrote "even after a head gasket and bolt replacment" I say nothing about that. Only now do you introduce this into your arguement.

You wrote "would give the impression that you believe that VW dispensed with the required 1,000 mile re-torque requirement for the head bolts" What would ever give you that impression? Now you think you can read my mind. Fail. Who are you? The thought police? You do not know my intent for posting. It is certainly not to start an arguement with you. That is your opinion.  Everyone has an opinon but you assume too much.  When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME. I would say that you are fighting a strawman. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

You wrote "I don't get that impression from the bulletin and I think its an error in logic to assume that is what they meant." I concur.

You wrote "My statement is not ambiguous." Obviously it must be, otherwise you would not be trying to elborate on your position at this time. Sucks to be ambiguous but yes it can happen to you too. 

You wrote "The condition that the engine arrives "from the factory" is an easily comprehended distinction that would mean when the engine is "new" (similar descriptions would be "factory new" or "brand new", etc), as opposed to after a head gasket replacement torque procedure." Thanks for clarifying what you tried to say earlier, even though you say clarification was not needed and you claim that your prior statement of  "Are they saying that the re-torque is not necessary from the factory? " is not ambiguous. Fail.

You wrote "You do not know what they do to the engines at the factory prior to installation.  They may very well run them through some break-in procedures at the factory that eliminate the necessity for any additional torque procedure for the head bolts and yet the re-torque procedure would still be necessary after the replacement of the head gasket." I never said that I knew what the "factory" does to the engines prior to installation nor did I comment on head gasket replacement procedures.

You wrote  "I doubt there are any people on this forum who give a flying fig about whether or not the head bolts needed a re-torque when the vehicle only had 1,000 miles on it"  Just your opinion.


You Wrote "however I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in knowing whether or not to re-torque the bolts 1,000 miles after a head gasket change.  Because of that, the posting of an ambiguous bulletin that only applied to when the car was "new", "brand new" or "from the factory" strikes me as both irrelevant and misleading.  How many folks here do you think have a '91 car with less than 1,000 miles on it?"  I am glad you speak for everyone that uses this site. If you feel the readers will be mislead by the bulletin then by all means do everything in your power to police this site to the best of your ability. It is irrelevant to ask "How many folks here do you think have a '91 car with less than 1,000 miles on it?"


Do us all a favor and stop replying to my posts in a negative manner. It's like you've got sand up your Volkswagen Audi Group. 

[Vincent Waldon]

So I'm checking the internet today to see what's going on...

- 159 folks lost their lives in Mangalore this weekend
- the oil slick off the Gulf coast is expected to be picked up by the currents off of Florida, ruining thousands of miles of coastline, threatening entire species of wildlife, and of course the livelihood of those who live off the sea.
- meanwhile in New Orleans 7 YEARS after the hurricane communities still lie in ruins.

And what do I see here:  folks harping at each other over who said what about a service note on the correct torque for 1991 Eco head bolts.

Thread locked... WITH DISGUST.