1.6 TD timing on the stand ?

[badersbus]

Hi All . Just a quick question. My son has recently had his 1.6TD rebuilt to stock , changing all the usual stuff , and it is back at home in the garage on the engine stand. The IP has also had a full refurb and is bolted back on , and ready for timing up with a new belt / tensioner etc. I know the usual method is to sight the mark on the flywheel through the hole in the gearbox , but what
do you need to do to time it on the stand as the gearbox is obviously not on.
Any help would be much appreciated about the complete process, diesel stuff is not my bag really , bodywork is my game.
many thanks
Kirk

[8v-of-fury]

I think waiting until the trans is mounted, and possibly even in the car would be best no?

Without the trans indicator, finding TDC will be very difficult. as even 2 degrees of crank rotation throws the TDC mark way off, but doesn't actually move the piston.

Just curious, why does it need to be timed on the stand?

[theman53]

There was a process on here discribed to do this and mark TDC. Something like having the timing belt off you put a valve down. Gently turn the crank*by hand* until it touches the valve and mark it. Then turn the crank back until it touches it the other way and mark. Then the "shorter distance" exactly between both marks is TDC. Say you have a clock and the marks are at 10 and 2 you would mark 12 for TDC not 6. Put your crank there, then time as you normally would

[8v-of-fury]

this is a good method, but it still leaves to much to "error of the user" to my likings. like what if he misses by a few degrees? first start could smack some valves if even by only a few thousandths.

[Vincent Waldon]

VW makes a very specific tool that bolts to the engine mount and is set to a very specific reading to find TDC with the tranny off:



Someone once mentioned what the exact measurement is in mm between the bolt hole and TDC but I can't find it... otherwise, you'll have to find TDC using the "bump against a valve in either direction" method *or* just wait till the tranny is back on.

Some lucky folks cut a wrecked tranny apart to use as a guide...another good idea... if only there were spare trannys kicking around.   

[Baron VonZeppelin]

I think i see some potential for headaches - depending.

IF - the crank is sitting with flywheel TDC mark at tippy top, and the cam lock slide fits in camshaft - you're okay for now. Just wait until engine is back with tranny and go from there. Do it right and you only have to do it once - kinda deal thang.

IF - those two parameters are not presently met, or really close, you should probably remove camshaft so you can safely rotate the crank without hitting/bending any valves and get the crank in that position. Then re-install cam accordingly.

Otherwise play russian roullette / rubix cube trying to finiggle camshaft properly to get crank rotated past valves to TDC.

In a perfect world:

1.the assembler verified #1 TDC after shortblock assembled and installed flywheel accordingly to that - at that time. Not just plopped flywheel on in any old way that bolted up - at a later time - without foresight.

2. the assembler then mounted head to block while keeping that TDC parameter, and camshaft was pre-aligned with lockslide in place.

3. nothing has moved since then.

that would be perfect.
========================

What "can" happen:

Flywheel mark not installed with attention to TDC alignment.
Or perhaps not installed at all by builder.

Head installed with all pistons at half-mast / center of bores.
Some guys do that. And they know if #1 piston was coming up or going down at the time, and they can finiggle the valves/cam with that knowledge to straiten things out, back to TDC. When THEY do the belt work.

If someone else assembled this longblock, and didn't install the flywheel for you, and/or install it accordingly, you got headaches coming your way.

Just throwing caution your way.
Hopefully this post was a waste of cyber-space, and all is very well.

[badersbus]

Hi Fellas.
Thanks for the replies. It does appear that the best way to time it would be to wait until the engine is back in the car with gearbox on then. The company who rebuilt it did not install the flywheel , i did that when it was back on the stand.I just thought it may be easier to work around on the stand than in the car.
I do however have another gearbox i could hack the bellhousing off and bolt to the block to get the "viewing window " to line it up , but i dont think i will have enough room between the block and stand  . Cant actually remember if the cam is lined up either with the slot in the head ??
Lots to be getting on with anyways , as you can see 
so not mega urgent lol
Thanks for all the help
Kirk

[Baron VonZeppelin]

The company who rebuilt it did not install the flywheel , i did that when it was back on the stand.

 Cant actually remember if the cam is lined up either with the slot in the head ??

When you installed flywheel - did you first verify that #1 piston was at TDC ? There are no reference marks or points on the harmonic balancer or pullies to determine this. It is a little difficult to do with the head installed - but can be done. And MUST be done.

On the backside of the camshaft, there is a recessed slot.
When crank/flywheel is aligned with #1 at TDC - that slot should be aligned horizontally in such a fashion that a flat bar slide will insert into the recess. If it is 180 degrees out of whack, the recess will be too low and not accept the flat bar. So it has some fool-proof in the design.

These engines are not done the same way as GAS engines.
Different school and proceedure.

I'm going to guess you don't have the specialized tools to perform the initial sprocket/belt timing or the dial indicator and jig to set the Inj Pump timing.

We can help you and direct you once it is determined exactly where you stand on these things.

Verifying #1 at TDC is Job #1.
Flywheel orientation is #2.
Cam slot alignment is #3.

I would do at least that much on the stand.

After that we can walk you through Inj Pump inital orientation and you could go ahead and install the timing belt at that time, before installing engine.

But there is no point in trying to set final Inj Pump timing with the dial indicator or the Libby-Tool, until engine is mated with the tranny.

[badersbus]

Hi Baron,  Thanks for the reply. When i bolted the flywheel to the end of the crank it would only go on one way i think due to the way the 6 securing bolts were set out. Could i have got the flywheel on 180 degs out??
I did not check the no 1 tdc before i did this also. The cam slot at the oppposite end of the cam to the belts does line up ok ,  with the lobes on no1 not in contact with the buckets , so cam is in correct position i reckon  
I dont have the tools as you mention , but just wanted to get the belt on as a job less to do in the car really.
I will get some pics this weekend and get em posted
Thanks  for all your time
Kirk

[Baron VonZeppelin]

I've read some are patterned to only fit one way - and some can fit in multiple ways. If you fully checked every possibility and only one way fit - you should be in good order. The Lords may have smiled on you this time. That would be sweet.

Here is the best source for the best price on the best quality timing tools. Can't be beat by any other source known to this forum or on the Vortex forum.

http://shop.ebay.com/rdigerb5315/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

That is a heavy in-depth makeover you guys are putting on that car.
Should turn out incredibly nice !