Fixmyvw.com

Author Topic: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?  (Read 6314 times)

Reply #15May 04, 2010, 04:23:00 am

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 04:23:00 am »
Well this is turning out to be an interesting proposition. I'm hopefully getting my new key seat cut in the crank tomorrow. One little problem I've run into is that this being the good ol' US of A nobody here has metric key seat cutters. As best I can make out the original seat was cut by a 4 x13.5mm cutter (4 being the width of the key and 13.5 the diameter of the cutter wheel). I find that metric seat cutters are a bit hard to come by in the US and the ones that are sold here must be made out of gold cause they're all quite pricy. So I'm going with the next best fractional equivelant which is 5/32 x 5/8. The 5/32 key does actually fit in the keyway on the sprocket pretty snug, it's only 8 ten thousandths smaller than a 4mm, so I'm not too worried about that. The 5/8 diameter cutter wheel will just barely fit under the shoulder of the crank but according to measurements it should go. Also that 5/32 key is a little taller from top to bottom than the 4mm original so I might have to trim it down a little. We shall see.
As for pinning the sprocket that's turning out to be an adventure as well. I stopped in at the high school metal shop today and had the kids there make me a duplicate of my washer. I'll put that on the drill press tomorrow and get some holes drilled in it and use it as guide for drilling the sprocket. The shoulder that I'll be drilling into on the crank isn't very wide, so about the biggest pin I can use is 1/8 (just over 3mm). I'm not even sure if pins that small will help that much, but at least it'll give me a little peace of mind. It's going to be a very tight fit however I do have the old sprocket that I can practice on before I REALLY screw anything up.
I THINK I've figured out how to post pics so I'll give that a try so everyone can see where I'm starting from.


Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #16May 04, 2010, 10:10:52 am

RadoTD

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 513
  • Personal Text
    Stage WTF
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 10:10:52 am »
Pics worked!

I can think of another slightly more permanent option if you're stuck though... picking up a welder and tacking it on.

Obviously if you're planning to pull your engine apart again, that's not the best option but if you need to, you could grind the tacks out again and put a TDI crank in then.

Just thought I'd throw that out there as you don't have much metal to work with :(

enough boost is when you have 3 dimple marks in the hood from the valve cover nuts..  ;D

Reply #17May 04, 2010, 01:03:31 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2010, 01:03:31 pm »
Yes that is always an option. Probably more of a last resort option. I did that to the brake caliper on a Ford pickup once. It worked.....but it was kind of a pain to have to grind and then re-weld it every time I changed brakes. I think perhaps if it got to that point I'd just get a new crank.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #18May 05, 2010, 01:52:28 am

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 01:52:28 am »
Well for those who have wondered if you can pin a 22mm crank, the answer so far is turning out to be......yes. Here's some photos.


On top of the pulley is the duplicate washer I had made to use as a jig. As you can see there was some trial and error getting the holes drilled in it. My drill bit had a tendency to want to walk towards the outer edge and a punch is too big to fit in there. I used a 7/64 bit on the washer and the initial holes in the sprocket, then I enlarged the holes in the sprocket with a 1/8 bit.

The finished product.......I got a little closer to the inside on a couple holes than I would have liked, but I don't think that will hurt anything. I don't think it's any different than cutting a key way in with a broach.

There's the shop supervisor stretching out...... He works hard.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #19May 23, 2010, 04:12:18 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2010, 04:12:18 pm »
Well pinning the crank, 22mm version, has turned out OK so far. The biggest problem I've encountered to date has been getting a new key seat cut in the crank. When you live out in the middle of nowhere like I do your choice of machine shops is limited, and what I've run into is that nobody seems to have the right equipmet to do it. I finally found a guy that could do it and he did an excellent job. It ended up being kind of a 'buddy' deal, and he only charged me 10 bucks to do it, which I was needless to say happy about. I was prepared to pay alot more than that. We used a 5/32 woodruff key which we had to trim a little off the top of, but other than that it was pretty cut and dried. The 5/32 key is a little wider than the 4mm original so it engages a little more of the keyway in the sprocket, which should help a little strength wise. On the other hand the 5/32 key is not quite as thick as the 4mm so there was just a little bit of rotational play. The pins, as you'll see, took care of that quite nicely though. With the cost of the pins and the keyseat cutting, I'm into it about 25 dollars so far, so it has ended up being quite a bit cheaper than getting a new crank. Now on to the process.

I used the already drilled sprocket as a guide to drill on the crank. I didn't want to wallow out the holes in the sprocket any more than I needed to, so I just got the crank holes started and then pulled off the sprocket and finished them. The crank itself is pretty hard, so the Drill Doctor saw a lot of employment on this job. Once I got them to approximate depth (about 1/4") I put the sprocket back on and put the bit in the deepest hole and then tightened up the chuck on it, and drilled them to final depth using the sprocket as a stop.




There's how it turned out. The one piece of advice I can give on this is that if you miss on drilling your holes, miss towards the inside. If you get outside of that shoulder on the crank, that's where your seal rides....and that would be really bad.

Sprocket on with pins in. Obviously I'll trim the pins later. Just doing a test fit at this point. With just the woodruff key in there I did have a little tiny bit of play, but once I put the pins in.... That baby is tight!!! No play at all.
In looking back on this, the one thing I'd do different concerns drilling the holes in my jig. In doing that I had made an exact duplicate of the washer that fits inside the sprocket to use as a drill guide. Instead of making an exact duplicate, I'd make the larger diameter step quite a bit bigger. The smaller diameter step has to fit inside the sprocket but the bigger one you can make as big as you want. If you keep it original size you have hardly any room to operate when you're drilling the guide holes. I had a little trouble with the drill bit wanting to walk to the outer edge, so I think a split point bit would cure that. I drilled from the inside out, using the smaller step to kind of guide off of. I just eyeballed it but I think if I had to do it again I'd use a feeler guage of .005" or so between the bit and inner step to keep the holes a uniform distance from the inner sprocket wall. It still has worked out alright so far, but those are a few adjustments I'd make.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #20April 03, 2011, 02:09:08 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 02:09:08 pm »
Well I know this is quite an old topic but I thought in case anyone was curious as to how this has worked out I'd post some results. The poor old car sat for almost a year because I was just too busy with other stuff to put much time into it but I finally got it back together a couple weeks ago. I'm happy to report that everything seems fine up to this point, the old girl is running great so far (knock on wood). Time will tell on how well it holds together as I only have about 150 miles on it right now, but with 4 pins and a new woodruff key it should be stronger than the original set-up, and that lasted for 26 years, so I'm confident. So if anyone feels they want to give this a go on a 22mm crank and you have questions feel free to ask and I'll try to help in any way I can.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #21April 03, 2011, 02:21:01 pm

R.O.R-2.0

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 7335
  • Personal Text
    Pacific Northwest - Oregon - USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 02:21:01 pm »
FWIW, the only engines ive seen with the keyed crank sprocket are only the oldest of the VW diesels.. like both of my 1.5D engines, and a couple really early 1.6Ds..

i guess it would be the same thing to pin a crank without a woodruff key tho..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #22April 03, 2011, 02:50:03 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2011, 02:50:03 pm »
FWIW, the only engines ive seen with the keyed crank sprocket are only the oldest of the VW diesels.. like both of my 1.5D engines, and a couple really early 1.6Ds..

i guess it would be the same thing to pin a crank without a woodruff key tho..
Yeah this engine is a bit of a mystery. As best I can tell this is the first re-build on it. The bores were original size and there were, for instance, no marks on the rods and caps to match them up, so I don't think anyone has been in there before me. The guy I bought the car from told me the PO before him had pulled this motor out of an 84 in a junk yard, and just swapped it in for the old 1.5 that was in there originally.It's a JK block so that would tend to support that. With that being said..... A JK should have the later style crank though. How that early crank got in there I have no idea.
Yes I do believe it would be about the same thing on the later, non-woodruff key, style cranks. Biggest difference I can see is that you could use bigger pins and have a little more room to work with. There's a link on page 1 of this thread that shows it..... That's where I got the idea from.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 12:09:24 am by Rabbit79 »
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #23April 03, 2011, 03:04:38 pm

R.O.R-2.0

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 7335
  • Personal Text
    Pacific Northwest - Oregon - USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2011, 03:04:38 pm »
FWIW, the only engines ive seen with the keyed crank sprocket are only the oldest of the VW diesels.. like both of my 1.5D engines, and a couple really early 1.6Ds..

i guess it would be the same thing to pin a crank without a woodruff key tho..
Yeah this engine is a bit of mystery. As best I can tell this is the first re-build on it. The bores were original size and there were, for instance, no marks on the rods and and caps to match them up, so I don't think anyone has been in there before me. The guy I bought the car from told me the PO before him had pulled this motor out of an 84 in a junk yard, and just swapped it in for the old 1.5 that was in there originally.It's a JK block so that would tend to support that. With that being said..... A JK should have the later style crank though. How that early crank got in there I have no idea.

oddly enough, my book only shows the JK being available in 83 Jettas.. lol..
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #24April 03, 2011, 03:48:34 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Save the crank I say!!!! Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2011, 03:48:34 pm »
That could easily be the case. Who knows how accurate the information through 2 POs is?
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug