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Author Topic: Compound pics  (Read 109578 times)

Reply #75May 03, 2006, 11:01:11 pm

SMOKEYDUB

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« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2006, 11:01:11 pm »
is it going your car going to creap out soon andy? my engine is going in , in a couple days the old one is already out. :D  Maybe we can do some comparison driving later 1.6 vs 1.9.... Cant rely on the doc getting his stuff done anytime soon... (lol)

Jeff
12mm PUMP 'O' DEATH on a 1.6L
(courtesy of GILES)

2000 NISSAN XTERRA (5 SPD)
1990 VW JETTA 20 VALVE DRAG CAR
1984 RABBIT TD 2dr (SOLD)
1.8t AEB soon around 550 whp

Reply #76May 04, 2006, 09:27:10 am

BlackTieTD

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« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2006, 09:27:10 am »
i don't think andy's 1.9 is much of a platform for comparison...not as far as your typical 1.9  :lol:  - that thing is gonna haul ass. great work andy can't wait to see it on the street!  :shock:

Reply #77May 04, 2006, 09:40:21 am

QuickTD

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« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2006, 09:40:21 am »
I would agree, there is no comparing andy's ride to anything else. It pulled as hard in 5th at 100mph as mine does in 2nd at 20mph. It promises to be even stronger this time around...

Reply #78May 04, 2006, 05:08:18 pm

andy2

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« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2006, 05:08:18 pm »
Not too far off running



The "into" intercooler pipe will be running under the tranny/engine,still need to get IC piping welded up.I'll post anther pic when the HY35 arrives,Not much room back there so it should be interesting.

Reply #79May 04, 2006, 05:22:27 pm

malone

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« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2006, 05:22:27 pm »
Looks great, what airbox is that and I'm curious as to know if you flow-tested your intake manifold?

Cheers,
Mark
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #80May 04, 2006, 05:25:00 pm

SMOKEYDUB

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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2006, 05:25:00 pm »
nice setup man.... still wanna give him a go though.
12mm PUMP 'O' DEATH on a 1.6L
(courtesy of GILES)

2000 NISSAN XTERRA (5 SPD)
1990 VW JETTA 20 VALVE DRAG CAR
1984 RABBIT TD 2dr (SOLD)
1.8t AEB soon around 550 whp

Reply #81May 04, 2006, 05:50:31 pm

andy2

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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2006, 05:50:31 pm »
Never even thought about flow testing it,until yourself and 935racer brought that up?If i could get it done somewhere around here now would be the time to do it :wink:.

If the engine holds together I don't want to push it over 210hp as the rods would likely bend/break again.It will move well I'm sure,if I could get into the high 13's/low 14's reliably I'd be happy.My car is going to be quite heavy when compared to others so to make it that quick it takes lots of power.I will definitey have to take it to the track and dyno after break-in.

BTW malone the air box is from a 94-02 dodge diesel.That specific turbo I'm using only comes on 00-02 dodge diesel with auto trans only.

Reply #82May 04, 2006, 06:21:17 pm

wyldman

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« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2006, 06:21:17 pm »
I have a good HY-35 off coming off a 2001 Cummins soon,if you need one.
Auto Proformance Services - VW Diesel parts and service
(416)565-7282

Reply #83May 04, 2006, 06:31:04 pm

andy2

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« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2006, 06:31:04 pm »
How soon :D ,That may work for me as I'm buying a brand new one after endless searches for a good used one :cry:.I guess when people upgrade they just throw the old turbo in thier garage to rot away :?.

Reply #84May 10, 2006, 05:35:04 am

TDIMeister

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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2006, 05:35:04 am »
Andy,

I haven't been able to see the pictures you linked to (web filter at work), but your description of the cylinder scuffing is the classical symptom of lubrication failure due to overly high PCPs.  As you know, the rings are forced radially outward for a firm seal on the cylinder bores by gas pressure.  Too much gas pressure --> too much radial force on the rings against the cylinders --> high contact pressure --> lubrication failure.

I would suggest that you try gapless rings on BOTH rings, contrary to the suggestion of some...  If there is the option, you should consider low-tension rings and a material high-stiffness (i.e., NOT cast iron, again somewhat of a contrary advice) to resist radial expansion under gas pressure.  And use a highly shear stable synthetic motor oil.  You may need more viscosity.  Amsoil HDD 10W-40 might just be the ticket.

Ceramic coat all the combustion chamber surfaces and drop that CR as much as possible.

One last thing: do you REALLY need 37 PSI of boost to burn the amount of fuel you throw at it?  How good is your intercooling? Ever consider water injection and/or nitrous?

Even though your rods and crank are holding up at the moment, fatigue manifests over a long period of time. ... have you taken a look at your bottom-end bearings?

Reply #85May 10, 2006, 09:26:00 am

QuickTD

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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2006, 09:26:00 am »
As a part time engineer on this project, I'll field a couple of these...  
Quote from: "TDIMeister"
Andy,

I haven't been able to see the pictures you linked to (web filter at work), but your description of the cylinder scuffing is the classical symptom of lubrication failure due to overly high PCPs.  As you know, the rings are forced radially outward for a firm seal on the cylinder bores by gas pressure.  Too much gas pressure --> too much radial force on the rings against the cylinders --> high contact pressure --> lubrication failure.


The bore scuffing was distinctly one sided, the thrust side to be specific. The skirt of the piston showed scuffing and partial loss of the anti-friction coating. I think its pretty safe to say the scuffing was purely a result of piston thrust.

 Ring scuffing, in my experience, is always immediately fatal. In searching for the magic "zero ring gap" on a couple of motocross bike engines, I have had the ring ends butt together at high temperature and cause the engine to sieze. Same mechanism as you're suggesting, but brought about by pressure due to lack of ring end gap. The engine will often come free after the ring contracts but the scuffed iron will immediately re-seize as soon as the engine is started, not the case with andy's motor.    

Quote
I would suggest that you try gapless rings on BOTH rings, contrary to the suggestion of some... If there is the option, you should consider low-tension rings and a material high-stiffness (i.e., NOT cast iron, again somewhat of a contrary advice) to resist radial expansion under gas pressure.


Gapless rings would tend to make the ring scuffing problem, if it exists, worse. With little leakage past the top ring all the pressure is carried by it alone. With standard rings the leakage past the top ring is sufficient to load the second ring and the pressure is somewhat shared between them. Cast iron is the best material for rings, particularly when scuffing or marginal lubrication is a concern, I would stick with it. Lubrication might be an issue. 2 stoke detroit diesels are famous for piston scuffing. The detroit "fix" is to run straight weight dino oils in 30 or 40 grades as they typically have the highest HT/HS viscosity. Food for thought?  

Quote


drop that CR as much as possible.



Done.

Quote


One last thing: do you REALLY need 37 PSI of boost to burn the amount of fuel you throw at it?  How good is your intercooling? Ever consider water injection and/or nitrous?



Intercooling is much improved this time around. Anybody that says high boost is bad hasn't tried it. :D  Nitrous is just cheating.

Quote


Even though your rods and crank are holding up at the moment, fatigue manifests over a long period of time. ... have you taken a look at your bottom-end bearings?


The 1.9TD crank is the same as the AHU TDI, save for the sensor wheel. The rods this time around are from the PD. Electron deposition coated anti-fatigue upper bearings are installed in the rods. Standard VW aluminum main bearings will stand anything, no sweat there. The block has been girdled for improved stability.

Reply #86May 10, 2006, 02:53:12 pm

TDIMeister

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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2006, 02:53:12 pm »
Quote
The bore scuffing was distinctly one sided, the thrust side to be specific. The skirt of the piston showed scuffing and partial loss of the anti-friction coating. I think its pretty safe to say the scuffing was purely a result of piston thrust.


After finally seeing the pictures for myself, I think I'm a bit more qualified now to comment than I was earlier.  You're right, Bruce, the scuffing looks distinctly loaded on the trust sides of the pistons.  I still stand by my believe that it was PCP-related.  Very high gas pressures act on the head and basically want to push the head off the block surface, with only the head bolts/studs holding them down.  This tensile load is transfered down the bolts and are taken up by the engine block, and this causes the bore to distort.  Of couse, there is a combination of several things that cause bore distortion; I'm mentioning just one.

How do you reduce side thrust, or ultimately prevent scuffing in the future?  Offset piston pins can help for one.  I believe some of the newer VW engines have this feature.  I don't know if blank crowns are available.  When I was working at FEV a few years ago, I was aware that they bought Mahle piston blanks that were basically the same ones that go into the TDI, but had a flat crown and no bowl or other pattern machined into them yet.  I donno if anyone has the contacts to get something like that.

Second is to just not run such high PCPs.  Bore distortion is a very real phenomenon, and that's one of the reasons why PCPs have an upper ceiling.  The ALH design limit is 155 bar and 130 bar for the 1Z/AHU TDI.  I would hazard that the AAZ would be the same or lower than the 1Z/AHU.  I would also estimate that Andy's setup would more than double that figure, albeit in short bursts.

Quote
Ring scuffing, in my experience, is always immediately fatal. In searching for the magic "zero ring gap" on a couple of motocross bike engines, I have had the ring ends butt together at high temperature and cause the engine to sieze. Same mechanism as you're suggesting, but brought about by pressure due to lack of ring end gap. The engine will often come free after the ring contracts but the scuffed iron will immediately re-seize as soon as the engine is started, not the case with andy's motor.


Zero-gap rings technically still have "gaps" because they have step-butted-ends.  Seizure is most often due to the butted end gaps not being proper to begin with, not an inherent design flaw of zero-gap rings.      

Quote
Gapless rings would tend to make the ring scuffing problem, if it exists, worse. With little leakage past the top ring all the pressure is carried by it alone. With standard rings the leakage past the top ring is sufficient to load the second ring and the pressure is somewhat shared between them. Cast iron is the best material for rings, particularly when scuffing or marginal lubrication is a concern, I would stick with it. Lubrication might be an issue. 2 stoke detroit diesels are famous for piston scuffing. The detroit "fix" is to run straight weight dino oils in 30 or 40 grades as they typically have the highest HT/HS viscosity. Food for thought?


The second compression ring does very little of the gas sealing work; rather as you correctly say, it reduces the pressure drop across the first ring.  In some racing applications, the second ring is either made very low tension and thin or totally dispensed with.

However, the reduced pressure drop due to the contribution of the second-ring, I would say, is relatively small compared to the overall magnitudes of pressures that the top-side of the top ring experiences, and would primarily affect the axial loading of the rings on the piston grooves and not the radial loading on the cylinder.  Here I'm looking at both rings as a pair, but concerned only with the top ring.  If you have a given 250 bar on the top of the top ring, I would argue that it makes very little difference whether the pressure under the top ring is atmospheric (hypothetical extreme case if the second ring weren't there at all), or a couple of bars.

As for material, yes, the consensus is that good ol' cast iron is ideal for non-plated rings.  However, OEM VW rings (at least one or both of the compression rings) are chrome plated, and the tribological surface is the chrome plating and the cylinder, not the base cast iron material.  Anyway, I agree that VW has as good OE rings as anyone anywhere, and it would not make sense to try to second-guess them.  I think it was Deo who said that Total-Seal simply reworked OEM rings, and if one were so inclined to go overkill on the rings, that might be the route to take.

Quote

Intercooling is much improved this time around. Anybody that says high boost is bad hasn't tried it. :D  Nitrous is just cheating.


Well, respectly fully I have to disagree here.  Any more boost than is required to burn up all the fuel you plan on dumping while aiming for minimal smoke and having decent EGTs only adds to more needless stress to the engine and, in the final analysis, no extra HP made.  Note: Please don't misunderstand what I just said!  Consider the whole statement rather than just the last 4 words.  Do you disagree?

OK, I grant you nitrous is out of the discussion. :)


Quote

The 1.9TD crank is the same as the AHU TDI, save for the sensor wheel. The rods this time around are from the PD. Electron deposition coated anti-fatigue upper bearings are installed in the rods. Standard VW aluminum main bearings will stand anything, no sweat there. The block has been girdled for improved stability.


The PD rods make the one beside it look a twig!  And if these are PD100 rods, I hear the PD150 ones are even stronger!

My question stands: have the bearings been looked at? :)


Cheers,
Dave

Reply #87May 10, 2006, 04:49:35 pm

QuickTD

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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2006, 04:49:35 pm »
I do know how gapless rings work, I was just using my "butted ring gap" failure as an example of the kind of damage that occurs during a ring siezure. I'm not sure how the scuffing problem could be remedied. A bit more piston clearance was used this time around as well as a different coating on the skirts. Piston thrust is directly proportional to cylinder pressure and torque, so cutting back on the torque would be the only surefire way to reduce it.

 The compression is in the 18-19:1 range due to the larger prechambers that were fitted so cylinder pressure will be similar or slightly lower than (due to prechamber throttling) to a stock TDI shortblock at equivalent boost/power level.

 I don't disagree about running high boost for the sake of it, but as you know, to create ever higher power, you must use more fuel which in turn requires more boost (or better "quality" boost) to burn it. The compound setup delivers good quality boost.

 You seem to be under the impression that an andy's engine couldn't possibly make use of the kind of air that 35psi provides, fact is it would like more... :D EGT's and smoke were still fairly high with 35psi. I would think that increasing the rate of injection via a larger plunger it should be possible to make similar power with a bit less boost. It may also be possible to lower the PCP at the same time by taking out a bit of timing advance. More testing will tell...

Reply #88May 10, 2006, 04:55:14 pm

TDIMeister

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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2006, 04:55:14 pm »
lol I don't intend to come across as a smart aleck, Bruce.  Tis all in a good technical debate. :)

Reply #89May 10, 2006, 05:54:55 pm

QuickTD

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« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2006, 05:54:55 pm »
Quote
lol I don't intend to come across as a smart aleck


Yeah, but I AM a smart aleck, and I don't care for you calling me on it...  :lol:

 
Quote
Tis all in a good technical debate.  


Indeed, keep it coming... I can't argue with my GF, she just leaves the room, I NEED an outlet... :D