run on veg oil

[tunedbandit]

Considering Rudolf Diesel designed the engine to run off peanut oil, it seems funny that people are so resistant to using veggy fuels.

couldn't agree more mate i just wanted to know if anyone on here as done/fitted there own kit & pics/info on how they did it,,Ive know doubt it will run Ive run nion svo without a heater system fitted & it run fine bar summer morning start up splutters,,& it smelt of burning veg oil eg in the cab,,so iam thinking due to the fact the oil wasn't warmed up is the reason for the smell & spluttered start up"s

[macka]

More then likely, VO needs to be fairly thin to be able to run through the injectors. 

[tunedbandit]

iam looking into building my own alloy veg tank to fit in the back of the t4 with copper coiled piping running from the heater system to heat the oil up,,then some sort of heat exchange under the bonnet area

[macka]

yea the only worry I'd have with all the different metals used is the polymerisation of the oil.

[OM617]

Scrap metal from a junk engine or pump is pretty small in the grand scheme of things

Not really. The smelting and energy to make the metal of an engine is more than the exhaust of a few cars per year.

Chances are an old pump is about to fail from ULSD anyway.

That is false. ULSD has zero issues.

Yes any fuel on which you do not pay road tax is illegal.

Tax is a very minor issue; the entire process of "converting" a vehicle is illegal. There are no EPA or DOT approved conversions on the market and raw vegetable oil is not approved by the EPA as a fuel either. By nature, it can't get approved. The base oil, quality and contaminants varies greatly from batch to batch let alone between sources. Because of that variance and the individual nature of its preparation there is no way to standardize and legalize it.

Thats why Biodiesel was developed. It allows for a consistent end product, no alteration of the vehicle's fuel system, no significant change in emissions output and no risk of damage to the engine if used in the percentage allowed by the OEM.

You'd better get in touch with Elsbett and tell them what they've been doing for years doesn't work then.

There is no such thing as a good single tank system. Elsbett makes crap on par with Lovecraft for the simple fact its a single tank system.

Do you know exactly what type of damage results

Engine oil contamination, accelerated carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and piston rings, excessive wear of the injection pump elements, high exhaust emissions and hacking of the vehicle body to fit the conversion.

Considering Rudolf Diesel designed the engine to run off peanut oil, it seems funny that people are so resistant to using veggy fuels.

Considering he died 20 years before the first diesel car was ever made and 50 years before your engine was designed by VW, its funny that people continue to make such an irrational association between a man and an engine he had absolutely no involvement with.

Also, you need to get your facts straight. Diesel engines were designed to run off coal dust. The only reason peanut oil was chosen is coal dust proved to be impractical for common use.

So please let us know when you've finished your coal dust conversion, after all thats what Dr. Diesel designed your engine to run on!  

[745 turbogreasel]

Scrap metal from a junk engine or pump is pretty small in the grand scheme of things

Not really. The smelting and energy to make the metal of an engine is more than the exhaust of a few cars per year.
Most of us go with rebuilt over new.

Chances are an old pump is about to fail from ULSD anyway.

That is false. ULSD has zero issues.
ULSD pulls the  aromatics from the pump seals if the pump had been previously used with non ULSD.  The oil companies admit this, and consider it acceptable losses, since they were exempted from responsibility.

Yes any fuel on which you do not pay road tax is illegal.

Tax is a very minor issue; the entire process of "converting" a vehicle is illegal. There are no EPA or DOT approved conversions on the market and raw vegetable oil is not approved by the EPA as a fuel either. By nature, it can't get approved. The base oil, quality and contaminants varies greatly from batch to batch let alone between sources. Because of that variance and the individual nature of its preparation there is no way to standardize and legalize it.
The only vehicle requirement i've found is a DOT standard which says your tank must not leak much after a 20' edge on drop to concrete.  Not much of a worry with my alloy marine tank.  neither the EPA nor the DOT are in the business of certifying fuel tanks, lines or heat exchangers, and Highway Patrolmen are not qualified to test them for standards compliance.  Tax is a major issue, often you go away longer for stealing from the government than for killing a man.

Thats why Biodiesel was developed. It allows for a consistent end product, no alteration of the vehicle's fuel system, no significant change in emissions output and no risk of damage to the engine if used in the percentage allowed by the OEM.
IMO Biodiesel  was invented so lazy people could just shove a nozzle in their tank.  It can be consistent, but often is not.

You'd better get in touch with Elsbett and tell them what they've been doing for years doesn't work then.

There is no such thing as a good single tank system. Elsbett makes crap on par with Lovecraft for the simple fact its a single tank system.
Agreed single tank is 100% crap

Do you know exactly what type of damage results

Engine oil contamination, accelerated carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and piston rings, excessive wear of the injection pump elements, high exhaust emissions and hacking of the vehicle body to fit the conversion.
If you don't stay on top of oil changes, polymerization will destroy your oil and engine. Neither of my Veg motors showed anything unusual in the chambers.  i've yet to see anything conclusive on emissions, mine are pretty high either way.  i've seen dymo smoke tests go either way.

Considering Rudolf Diesel designed the engine to run off peanut oil, it seems funny that people are so resistant to using veggy fuels.

Considering he died 20 years before the first diesel car was ever made and 50 years before your engine was designed by VW, its funny that people continue to make such an irrational association between a man and an engine he had absolutely no involvement with.

Also, you need to get your facts straight. Diesel engines were designed to run off coal dust. The only reason peanut oil was chosen is coal dust proved to be impractical for common use.

So please let us know when you've finished your coal dust conversion, after all thats what Dr. Diesel designed your engine to run on!  

[the caveman]

I will only ad a couple of things and then bail because i'm sick of arguing about this.
In Quebec it is NOT illegal to run on VO  .  I( asked before i started my company] . They only care about taxes. A couple of the trucks i did went through inspections and they didn't care.
Here the only tax issue is if you buy the WVO from some one . Then you are supposed to submit a fuel tax form.
Elsbett produces work fine in Europe where it doesn't get quite as cold here for any length of time.

I HAVE NEVER HAD A COME BACK OR ISSUE WITH ANY OF THE CONVERSIONS I DID. MANY HAVE LOTS OF KMS UNDER THEIR BELT. NOT ONE FAILURE OR RUNNING ISSUES - except when the WVO was poor.

[maxfax]

yea the only worry I'd have with all the different metals used is the polymerisation of the oil.

Indeed..   Galvanized steel and copper are two that can do some funky things with the oil..  VO isn't so bad, but when you get into WVO it's much worse with the slight acidity of it.. 

[monkey magic]

ULSD has zero issues.

The issues of ulsd are known, so zero issues is quite far off the mark. Even Giles has comments about this on his website.

There is no such thing as a good single tank system. Elsbett makes crap on par with Lovecraft for the simple fact its a single tank system.

I didnt mention single tank systems, neither did the OP, not sure what you're talking about there. I was simply pointing out you were very wrong when you said "There is no way to run an engine on raw VO without long-term damage." Clearly this isn't the case. See also the post here where somebody has clocked up 6 figure milage numbers on veg oil.

Engine oil contamination, accelerated carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and piston rings, excessive wear of the injection pump elements, high exhaust emissions and hacking of the vehicle body to fit the conversion.

Engine oil contamination, thats a good one, so you have zero blow by running on diesel? I would like to see the evidence on accelerated carbon buildup etc, i think you're just making it all up as per usual. You have read this somewhere and quote it as fact, without really having a clue either way.

High exhaust emissions = damage to vehicle? Ok, if you say so.

I wont mention that veg oil is almost carbon neutral, so emissions isnt a major issue anyway. Oops, i mentioned it.

And classing 'hacking of the vehicle body' as damage as a result of veg oil conversion really is clutching at straws. You're on a forum full of people modifying their vehicles, so clearly nobody here see's hacking their vehicle an issue.

The whole coal dust argument doesn really cut it, Rudolph Diesel saw both coal and peanut oil (or similar) as potential fuel sources, so coal or no coal, it is STILL unusual that people are so against using veg oil as a fuel in a diesel engine.

Peace,

MM

[Kudagra]

When someone tells so many lies and falsehoods and presents them as fact without any data to back it up, it makes it impossible to accept anything they say in the future as even remotely accurate.


MonkeyMagic  pretty much said what I was thinking.  On the accuracy of diesel pumps, injectors and wear associated with ULSD there isnt any one I would believe over Giles.

[8v-of-fury]

When someone tells so many lies and falsehoods and presents them as fact without any data to back it up, it makes it impossible to accept anything they say in the future as even remotely accurate.


MonkeyMagic  pretty much said what I was thinking.  On the accuracy of diesel pumps, injectors and wear associated with ULSD there isnt any one I would believe over Giles.

Truth.

[mstephenson]

Hi,

My references can be researched/accessed from www.journeytoforever.org.  If they do not have the answer they have links and REFERENCES to books, journals, articles, peer reviewed articles, experiments, etc.

I am not sure about the copper tube heating coil inside the VO tank.  I have stainless steel in my head from a post somewhere, but cannot tell you why at the moment.  Please read/search this site for the proper tubing.  SVO/WVO will work in a two tank system as long as the engine is started/stopped on diesel and the VO is heated properly for flow.  For VO to reach the same BTU's as diesel it has to be heated to ~400degF.  Since the engine is running 180-200degF there will be some difference in energy output/performance of the engine.  Not really enough to notice or care.

My comments regarding the undocumented/unreferenced posts are preceded by a ***


Quote from: OM617 on March 30, 2010, 01:13:44 PM
ULSD has zero issues.

The issues of ulsd are known, so zero issues is quite far off the mark. Even Giles has comments about this on his website.

***Many believe that sulphur is the lubricant, however it is not.  ULSD has had the lubricity removed during the sulphur removal process.  www.journeytoforever.org


Quote from: OM617 on March 30, 2010, 01:13:44 PM
There is no such thing as a good single tank system. Elsbett makes crap on par with Lovecraft for the simple fact its a single tank system.

I didnt mention single tank systems, neither did the OP, not sure what you're talking about there. I was simply pointing out you were very wrong when you said "There is no way to run an engine on raw VO without long-term damage." Clearly this isn't the case. See also the post here where somebody has clocked up 6 figure milage numbers on veg oil.

***WVO/SVO has different qualities.  For example, rape seed oil (canola) has the best lubricity along with peanut oil.  There are others with less lubricity, but all have a better lubricity content than ULSD.  The lubricity of these oils creates less friction and wear than processed diesel.  www.journeytoforever.org


Quote from: OM617 on March 30, 2010, 01:13:44 PM
Engine oil contamination, accelerated carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and piston rings, excessive wear of the injection pump elements, high exhaust emissions and hacking of the vehicle body to fit the conversion.

Engine oil contamination, thats a good one, so you have zero blow by running on diesel? I would like to see the evidence on accelerated carbon buildup etc, i think you're just making it all up as per usual. You have read this somewhere and quote it as fact, without really having a clue either way.

I wont mention that veg oil is almost carbon neutral, so emissions isnt a major issue anyway. Oops, i mentioned it.

***Engine oil contamination is present in every engine albeit in different levels.
***Accelerated carbon buildup has been discussed with motors that have EGR's.  i.e. TDI
***Injection pump componants last longer using VO as long as the seals are biodiesel/ULSD friendly
***High exhaust emissions is vague and misleading.  Vehicles produce COx whether on petrol or diesel.  On VO the emissions change to NOx.

www.journeytoforever.org

Peace,
Michele

[Runt]

I'll stick to the technical side of this argument, as I have not the patience to bicker over legalties or undocumented assertions, both of which vary greatly from one person/locality to the next. 
The concern over copper/Galvanised is absolutely valid.  From my own research, neither has any place in a VO system.  At issue is the fact that even dinodiesel is subject to longer chain polymerisation (waxes), and VO more so, WVO (sometimes) much more so.  Of course WVO is hugely more variable than SVO, but the prudent thing to do would be to design for the worst case, right?
Certain compounds make good catalysts.  Among these are most of the noble metals (Platinum, Palladium, etc), Copper, Zinc, Aluminum compounds, and sometimes even Iron.  In making biodiesel it is the Sodium or Pottasium which acts as a catalyst to for the esters which are burned as fuel, by splitting off the glycerols.  (Not a perfectly complete description, but you get the idea.)
So, when a system is built to heat and circulate VO/WVO, it is wise to avoid any materials which may act as a catalyst to further speed polymerisation.  The heat in itself already contributes, so one thing I've always considered is limiting the temperature of the fuel which is returned to the tank, and not heating the tank beyond that neccessary to provide for good flowing fuel.  That is, if you can pump from the tank to the front of the car at 40 degrees, you would want to add the rest of your needed heat as close to the pump as possible, and then preferably remove some or most of the heat before the fuel reached the tank again.
These are just my thoughts, YMMV.

[745 turbogreasel]

Copper grows green in veg, I avoid it.

My aluminum tank was disassembled after a few years in operation, and it was still cleaner than any fryer I have seen in service in a restaurant.  I was quite surprised, and put it back together.
I found a small power increase on veg, and attribute it to the timing curve running closer to spec with a thicker fuel.

On cars that will start on cold veg, you can hear the pump metering  reacts too slowly, and idle surging results.

Not sure I consider journeytoforever an unbiased source.

From my observation, 90% of problems with veg systems stem directly from incompetent mechanics doing design, install, and service.   Much of this stuff is done  by people with no idea you cant have a rubber coolant hose hanging down  be the lowest point of your car, and may have never done an oil change.

[macka]

This is getting good. The info here is almost a reference point. I've read a lot of journey to forever info. But a lot you miss because it is so much reading. I'm glad to see we have people here who are doing this and I can hopefully call upon to help when I get started doing biodiesel and a WVO/VO conversion.