Golf II GTD with 1.9 AAZ engine --- EVO II

[Alleslowbuged]

Hi,

@Trev0rbr
I think not, i have one of these manifolds (also for my mk1 project), but it has a T3 flange and no wastegate conection, so i would need an adapter as well.

@carrizog60
yes they take it strait from the supermarket, for 1,50$ extra you can buy the adapter also full with tuna as an option.

I have bought one of these T3-Wasetagte-T3 cast flanges, soi have to develop a solution to make it fit with stock manifold and T25 Turbofalnge.
Perhaps i can weld both end of the broken adapter together with the new one, or just make some new threads in in.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Turbo-Adapter-Flange-Garrett-T3-to-T3-with-Wastegate-/120826221098?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4820854604225012358

Best Regards

[RabbitJockey]

There are two styles one has a wastegate. But like u said if the schwitzer is a t25 flange then u still need an adapter

[keaton]

Hi,

as i have wrote before, i have done some cfd simulations, all with 30 psi boost and flow for @ 200 hp:

stock,


as scheduled, not much better


a bit better with Ø65 mm pipe instead Ø50 mm pipe


here with extra bend, so that the flow come from the upside:


best version seems to be, with flow comes from the front (horizontal)


I will do a bit more rework on something like that.

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

What program are you using?

here is what i came up with











notice the fins above here is what it looks like with out

[BlueMule]

Alles, huge props for your progress. Nice to see the "old school" spirit of learning and doing it yourself is alive and well.

WOW, what a huuuuge breakdown on your turbo adapter. Before you start welding on anything you need to find out what the adapter that you bought is made of. You really don't want that thing to fall apart and your turbo ends up dangling like a participle from the oil feed line 

I still think your best bet is to buy the right material and then have someone weld it up for you. Repeat after me "321 stainless 10-13 mm wall thickness with 347 consumable" keep repeating this and all of your adapter fears will go away 

As far as CFD calcs, the first consideration is how much total air (Mass) do we need to make X horsie power, if fueled properly. Then divide by cyls. At this point all cyls must flow equally in Mass and velocity. What makes a huge difference is whether or not laminar flow can be established in the runners. For this to occur the runners should be as straight as possible and not polished, a finish of 160-180 grit is preferred. 90 Degree angles are a no no. Also remember that no matter how big you make the ports, the biggest restriction in the intake are the intake valves, it makes no sense to hog out the ports if your intake valves are only X mm. These IDI heads are really not that bad in the intake department. The exhaust, however leave a huge amount to be desired.

SO keep on keepin on Brochacho

BlauMaulesel

[Alleslowbuged]

Hi,

@Trev0rbr
could you send me link, i have searched for a wastegate version yesterday, before i bought this cast adapter, but only found wastegate version for 16V heads.

@keaton,
Nice work, i seems that you allready tuned all the small details to come up with a nice flow field. I have used SolidWorks Simulation 2011 and as i wrote before end up with the same conclusion, that the slot should be 90° to the runners. The fins are fine and looks instandly right, but are to hard to fabricate for me. I have looked for my na intake yesterday and found it at home, but i do not think it could be used with stock exhaust manifold (also with the adapter), because it nearly goes straight horizontal out of the cylinderhead, so could only be used if the turbo goes down. When did you make your calculations, i would estimate it was a lot to do, to bring it to this refined level.

@Bluemule
Thanks again for this nice words, it keeps me motivated to know that my work is a bit interessting for the people here and perhaps my faults could prevent other from having the same issues.

Regarding the adapter, i would say that the think i have bought is fully bull*** and is make from people without knowledge. I have talked to the shop owner after the first breakdown and found out, that he has exactly no knowledge about welding and temperature stress and so on, the just gave to a eastern europe country and ask for weld it together, they dont have WSP or somethink like that. In fact that meant for me, that i have lost my money and could not hope that they will find a solution.

I have seen a T3/T25 Wastegate adapter on USA ebay, the same welding style as my, but the wastegate flange is shorter, so the that the small wastegate flange is weldet on both turbo flanges on his ends. This should make the hole think a lot more rigid, because there is than no more stress concentration on the T-union weld. It also allows head flow from the heated turboflanges in the wastegate flange, even when the wastegate is closed, this should also lower the thermal stress. The cast apapter also has this connection between the wasetgate and turbo flanges.

I hope that i could find out both materials and that the cast adapter is made from cast steel, otherwise it could be welded (from me). I am not familiar with the asme code for steel, do you know the DIN or ISO code for "321". If i were the builder at all, i would make it either from 16Mo3 or 13CrMo4 and not from "real" stainless steel (gamma phase iron), to prevent whose high thermal expansion rate (~18 * 10^-6 instead of 12 * 10^-6).

Thank for your reply to the cfd also, in fact i startet your way and came up with 0,2 kg/s for 200 hp at 3,0 bara and ~100°C. I did not have make a lot of math before i ask for porting the head, but know i fully agree, that there is absolutely no necessary to make something on the stock intake ports (perhaps just match the gasket on the split plane. The stock 1,9 td ports a aproximate 20% smaler than the 1,6 ports nad they are stupidly shaped in the area of the 90° bend behind the valves. So i still assume there could be make some progress on porting them. But in fact i agree, (same was writen from trev0rbr) that the big gains are made with the valves. I hope and think that my new camshaft helps for peak power and it seems that is had no bad influence to low rpm power, as the swirl after the valve it not as importand for our idi engines. If i go for the next head experience, or perhaps even with this head again, i would also make a 30° chamfer on the valve seat ring, same as the tdi's have (i did no know before last week).

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

         

 

 

[carrizog60]

The stock 1,9 td ports a aproximate 20% smaler than the 1,6 ports

i thought that 1.9 head was bigger on ports

i would also make a 30° chamfer on the valve seat ring

what do you mean by that?any pic?i am lost in the translation...

usually people dont mess with the camshafts,low gain they say and very few options to choose...
but what about tdi aftermarket camshaft?would they work?

also almost high hp tdi around here use diesel  radiators,can that also work on our engines?

just some ideas to help reach the most safe hp 

[theman53]

Looks like regular old box tubing would have held up better. You could take that off and get some or a nice piece of round pipe that you could weld and gusset it for strength. Libby used to do that stuff all the time. ARB, the guy that build the minivan did too. The hard part of that piece is the cut port and holes in it, so you at least have something to work with.

[RabbitJockey]

i thought there was another version more similar to the non wastegated ebay manifold, but kinetic makes a wastegated version, here are a few i found, a but pricey in comparison... but u gotta pay to play i suppose.

divided/twin scroll:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spa-Turbo-Manifold-Volkswagen-All-Models-Water-cooled-/310324992408?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D2%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4842043956152208062

and a regular one, i believe this is either the kinetic manifold or a copy of it

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spa-Turbo-Manifold-Volkswagen-All-Models-Water-cooled-/310324992396?_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D310324992408%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4842045357118754943



dave used one on his build

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=11698.0

[Alleslowbuged]

Hi,

are you sure that they have a wastegate connection? As there is only one small picture and they also did not decribe any dimensions or details, even on they homepage, i could not find out. I am also not sure, if i have enough place between manifold and firewall, to suit turbo and manifold.

I was also in the kinetic motorsport page, and like the angular flange more. In combination with a non wastegate T3/T25 adapter, which are shorter (~52 mm; ~ 2 ") this should give the most reliable solution and should suit easly with the firewall. Unlikely it will also the most pricely solution.

We will see, my cast wastegate adapter is allready shipped, so i will first see how i could fit it with my other parts. (and than i will buy an kinetic manifold)

Best Regards
Alleslowbuged

[BlueMule]

Alles, what’s up?

321 is, DIN- X12CrNiTi 18 9, or ISO 683/XIII Type 15. It is universally used for high performance Turbo manifolds, and has proven its worth, viability and longevity. Also you want steel that can “glow red” and not break down over the long term, easy to work, and very available, again 321 fills the bill. 310, DIN- X12CrNi 25 20, is better in scaling at higher temperatures, but too ductile.

So I would use 321 because it is a known quantity. With your application, if you wrap your manifold and your adapter, it will glow red under the wrap, plain “steel” would never withstand this environment.
I am familiar with the chrome moly, 13CrMo4 steel, but 321 beats its heat resistance. I frankly would not worry about the expansion rate, 321 has been used for years with no spectacular failures I am aware of.
Whatever you decide, make sure your Merge Collector/Adapter has as little volume as possible, you want the exhaust flow high and the gas concentrated at this point, (obviously not to the point of restriction), but the less expansion allowed, (less volume) the more velocity and the more “agitated” the gas molecules, carrying their waste energy to the turbine.

I still think you should build a support for the turbo, and please don’t use a piece of galvanized electrical tubing (EMT) that has been beaten with a hammer flat on both ends and then had a couple of holes drilled in it, “Mein Großvater hatte das Luftfahrt-Maschinist würde entsetzt sein“. I mean really

The cast adapter, as long as it is using the right steel will be fine, the thickness of the walls will cetainly contain the gases easily, but again a support on the Turbo might help with the longevity.

I really am not too sure about that gasket matching, it seems as if the exhaust gaskets folks are getting now are wayyy oversize, it might be the photos, but I would not hogolicious the head to a size that overshadows the valve diameter. Better to make a set of gaskets, in fact, maybe I will project this and check gaskets from different suppliers, just to see.

Tell us about the cam if you could, lift, duration etc. vs stock.

As far as the valve seat, I am trying to envision where that angle would be, unless you mean the back side of the valve head. If so, this is a very common modification as it removes a huge disturbance to the air flow. In my world the valves come without this „notch“ and swirl polished back side and front. If I want that for my little Mule, I will have to machine it myself.

So wishing you the best

BlueMule

 

[Alleslowbuged]

Hi, here the details from the camshaft, its a regrinded stock aaz camshaft

That is also the reason ,why i dismount the head in the golf and why i will install a 260°/250° camshaft.
lift is 9,9 mm / 9,4 mm, timming is 18°/62° - 57°/13°, spread angle 112°, valve lift in TDC 0,50 mm.

Best Regards    

Regarding the 30° chamfer, i has seen that on the original VW "Reparaturleitfaden" (repair manual), as it is the
stock mashining for the 1Z engine and yes it is behind the valve seat, but in the valve seat ring.

Regards

[RabbitJockey]

like this?

[NintendoKD]

LOVE THIS THREAD!

[R.O.R-2.0]

the actual tubular part of your adapter looks like its made of 28ga sheet metal.. its all cracked, and looks way too thin to support a wastegate, let alone a turbo..

that was a really pretty piece too, shame they used such small tubing for the center part..

i would rebuild it, and use some thick wall steel rectangle tubing for the center section between the flanges..

[Alleslowbuged]

Hi,

even if i don't have written hier something in the last day, it goes forward...

My hyper loved tuna can turbo adapter has used it last (sub 30 mph) 25 km to eliminate the last doubt that it is scrap:






All the scrap stuff is dismount allready, but i still wait for new parts.

Here are two pictures, which shows how a wastegate adapter should look like (it is for my BMW):





 
The other adapter (T3/T25) will work in the golf, as it is smoth and tapered inside it schould be also positiv
for spooling:



Best Regards
Alleslowbuged