G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2

[RabbitGTDguy]

Very nice pics of the plungers. Thats interesting to see that the cummins pumps plungers came in different varieties as well and it'll be interesting to hear what the thoughts on the "grooves" are.

In the meantime, i'm going to look through my bosch injection service manual (which I now have in PDF if anyone is interested...) as I've been reading and working on the governor for the cummins pump.


Joe

[RedRotors]

No problem Mike for the pictures..  

As Bruce said, a clean working area is more than critical. I made many pumps w/o any plunger seized problem. When i play with pump guts, i don't take them in my bare hand, i always use gloves to avoid the acidity of the body to attack the metal. Anyway, everybody has their way to work..

About the groove at the end of the plunger, i read long time ago that this groove help the pressure to rise faster, BUT, the one ( 12mm head ) out of the vw rally tdi-r is groove less like mine. But, this is not the reason why i choose this model. The common 4bt head dosen't have the proper guide pin seat for lat 1.9TD and TDI pump, so instead of messing around with guide pins and spring, you can use the original ones.


Cheers,
Marc/

[malone]

To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts...

I agree, but I forgot to mention that fspGTD claimed to have possibly hit or exceeded 9,000 RPM when he accidently mis-shifted and I don't intend on going anywhere near that. I have HD valve springs and that's all to support higher RPM.

I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of 11/12mm pump head failures are due to improper assembly or dirt or both.

If carefully assembled under clean conditions I see no reason that a 12mm head cannot survive at 5000rpm.

I can see that. My friend's 12mm pump failed the moment he touched 5,200 RPM though. I'm still not certain if a 12mm equipped pump (properly assembled) can survive up to 7,000 RPM. Contaminants or improper assembly is a different concern. There's a local VW tuner (Shawn van Neer, some of you guys may recognize him as he was the "King of VWs" in North America with one of the first Rabbit VR6 swaps, more than 10 magazine features, etc. He used to work at Momentum Motorsports and now runs Kinetic Motorsport) who did 13.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile in his 1.6L Rabbit a long ago with IIRC a T3/T04e50 (coincidentally, a turbo similar to the one I may upgrade to next.. this is despite some members here dismissing it as inefficient according to compressor maps) and he has destroyed a few pumps with 12mm.

This is one reason why I'd like Giles to work on my pump; he has the necessary tools to test and fine-tune a pump before I run it in my daily driver. The pump would otherwise require a number of time-consuming trail and errors (and maybe a couple broken pump housings) to get it to work right up to 6,500 - 7,000 RPM.

I would much rather get more HP than increase low RPM torque because I already have decent torque and there seems to be better HP potential during higher RPM, past 5,000. If 10mm or 11mm plus real injector nozzles upgrade will flow enough fuel (with decent atomisation) then I'll be happy.

[fspGTD]

Mark - does your current pump have the 1.6's camplate with about 2.2mm displacement or has it got the 1.9's with approx 3.2mm?  That's really neat how far you've gone with a 9mm plunger.

[malone]

Mark - does your current pump have the 1.6's camplate with about 2.2mm displacement or has it got the 1.9's with approx 3.2mm?  That's really neat how far you've gone with a 9mm plunger.

It has the 1.9 camplate

[RedRotors]

One thing that i might be worry about, is what kinda power we can extract from a diesel at high RPM.. Im not an expert in engine but i know that some limiting factors will affect the efficenty of the engine. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft and perhaps put the crank to a diete, but what about the ignition delay? Combustion time, mixing time?

I think that an 1.6 block w/ 1.9 head might be better than an 1.9. 1.6TD has a shorter stroke so an higher revving limit might be acheived.

As for the 12mm thing, i never revved mines or others over 4800 so all  my pumps still hold. I think that bigger plunger might be less toleren for high rpm.. big things has more inertia.. An 11mm or even an 10mm might be enought for the power ballpark that we are in..

my 0,02

Marc/

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

At high revs is the 'inlet' past the fuel cut off solenoid an issue? Can failure be partly due to vaccuum and vortex formation either side of piston at high speeds?

 If a 'longer' thrust camplate pushes the piston a greater distance; is the piston travelling faster? (Ie) are the cam lobes operating over the same arc of a revolution? Standard was about 5 thou per flywheel tooth in operating range

These pistons look like they could be 1.5  x the weight of standard; anyone weighed them? Heavier weight thrown about more etc...

What happens to the sleeve which is suspended by springs in position due to the viscosity of the diesel between the sleeve and the piston at higher speeds?
Does it stick or wear?

[935racer]

As far as engine internals go these engines are good for about 7k I figure, if you were to spend much time over 6k I would highly reccomend HD valve springs but thats about it these engines are nice little revers. I don't think there is much power to be made with these engines over 6k, that would be the point where making a reliable injection pump would be extremely hard and having enough fuel for that much boost and flow from that much rpm would be really difficult. I think the GTD injectors are seriously limiting fuel as well, I think malones engine is in much need of some big ass nozzles. I think a 12mm head is a bit over kill, I bet with a differnt camplate and a 10 or 11mm head you could get all the fuel most of us could ever use. But we will se what happens malone is due for some more mods :twisted:

[vwmike]

No problem Mike for the pictures..  

As Bruce said, a clean working area is more than critical. I made many pumps w/o any plunger seized problem. When i play with pump guts, i don't take them in my bare hand, i always use gloves to avoid the acidity of the body to attack the metal. Anyway, everybody has their way to work..

About the groove at the end of the plunger, i read long time ago that this groove help the pressure to rise faster, BUT, the one ( 12mm head ) out of the vw rally tdi-r is groove less like mine. But, this is not the reason why i choose this model. The common 4bt head dosen't have the proper guide pin seat for lat 1.9TD and TDI pump, so instead of messing around with guide pins and spring, you can use the original ones.


Cheers,
Marc/

One of these other 4bt pump heads actually has that style of guide pin seat. There are about a million different Cummins pump heads though. How many different sizes of plunger foot are there though?

[RabbitGTDguy]

To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts...

I agree, but I forgot to mention that fspGTD claimed to have possibly hit or exceeded 9,000 RPM when he accidently mis-shifted and I don't intend on going anywhere near that. I have HD valve springs and that's all to support higher RPM.

Good to hear... I'll be extending the RPM range slightly but only with the gov. modification and a careful foot; but agree with Mark in where either engine...

One thing that i might be worry about, is what kinda power we can extract from a diesel at high RPM.. Im not an expert in engine but i know that some limiting factors will affect the efficenty of the engine. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft and perhaps put the crank to a diete, but what about the ignition delay? Combustion time, mixing time?

Marc/

IDI TD or TDI will make the best and most reliable power and torque. ...afterall, if I wanted a 7k motor I think i'd go with a gasser anyways... Just love that diesel torque...
Sure, they are good to 7k...but thats "good to" limits.  With the price and availability of some parts becoming a bit harder to find, I'd hate to toast a motor and have to go back to the board. It'll be interesting to see how Malone's motor performs, etc. once its up, ready and going "semi-complete" since we all always seem to have projects, modifcaitions, etc. I try to never call anything completion, always seems like something is in motion.
This could be a mind changer as far as whether want to keep their cars at a certain RPM limit or whether they too want to extend their range if the power provides to be reliable and useful. Can't wait to see some real dyno info on these projects. Def. should be interesting... I'm sure its going to be awesome!
Malone, also...turning those RPM's your planning with the fueling, etc. Did you go for aftermarket rod bolts and main studs instead of bolts or stick with the stockers? Sounds pretty bulletproof so far, just hoping nothing else would decide to let loose with stock hardware given that they are pretty weak links (rod bolts and main bolts for stress and crankshaft flex under high rpm load) on gasser VW's and diesels alike. Think i'm going to go with the stud kit and ARP rod bolt kit, just extra insurance. You just mentioned the valve springs, so I imagine you took preperation in this area too.


Joe

[malone]

If I recall correctly the 1.6L TD has the same stroke as a 1.8L 8v gasser's. Revving to 6,500 or 7,000 RPM doesn't seem like a big problem. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft, and perhaps knife-edging the crank sounds like preparing a 8k to 10k RPM motor. It'd be nice to do but I may not benefit from it much for the $.

RabbitGTDGuy, I could go for a 7k gasser if I wanted to, but I chose not to because:

1) I like diesels. No going back to gassers for me. The alternative fuels (bio, veg) are attractive too.
2) Better fuel mileage than gassers for the power/torque it makes, especially during normal driving.
3) It's unique and very interesting to see what we can get out of an IDI. 8v gas turbo? Boring.
4) My 1.6TD in its present setup makes plenty of torque during low RPM. Right off the line it feels far peppier than a MK3 2.0L ABA or MK2 2.0L 9A (16v). It also feels comparible to a stock ALH TDI @ 2,500 RPM (close to 155lb-ft) because my MK3 is approx. 400 pounds lighter than a MK4. It doesn't take much to move the car. Once 3,000 RPM hits, which doesn't take long, holy crap it pulls! There's a feeling of rush that I could not find in a moderately modified 1.9L TDI. Not to mention the roar the IDI makes when it pulls, and the sound of 35 PSI. The fact that this 1.6L IDI has good potential to pull longer and harder makes me hard :lol:

I see a few VE TDIs putting down at least 350lb-ft at the wheels just to make 170 to 190whp. To me that much torque between 2,500 and 2,800 RPM in a front-wheel drive vehicle isn't very usable. If I wanted a low RPM torque monster I wouldn't have sold my 70k km rebuilt ALH TDI longblock a couple months ago in favour for getting this 1.6L IDI built. However, the TDIs do have great fuel mileage for the torque they make and that's one thing I wished I had.

In overall cost I'm getting the most bang for the buck from this IDI, at least in my perspective. My entire MK3 1.6 IDI vehicle in its present configuration costs not much more than half of a stock A4 TDI vehicle. We are already learning a lot from this project with enthusiasm too. If my IDI engine ever shatters into pieces, starting over won't be too costly compared to owning a TDI vehicle and rebuilding its engine. I also may receive a spare AAZ 1.9TD head soon and naked 1.6 TD blocks are like $100 each.

IDI parts don't seem that hard to find.

Oh yes, I already have Raceware rod bolts *edit: correction: main studs are still OEM.

[935racer]

Actually there are only the rod bolts down in the bottom end, and factory brand new main bolts. Studs would definately be a good idea.

[RabbitGTDguy]

thats great to hear malone. Glad you decided with the diesel roots ( I can't do gassers anymore either...my last, a 8v Lysholm Stg 4 corrado) bored me too after the motor was done, not to mention...tried to kill me ) I chose my diesels as more important for all the same reasons. I've built several 1.8 turbos, for friends though... never was much into the feeling because I've always had a diesel since I was able to drive.

You must be lucky in your IDI TD parts around you then because around here they are scarce, and getting harder and harder to find parts for. I have at least 2 emails or IM's on either the vortex or through thesamba regarding information about whether my 30k rebuilt TD IDI that I had is still for sale. Which its probably by now i hope found its way into the vanagon the buyer bought it for. I hope, with my modifications and rebuild that it serves him many useful miles and an extra boost over stock hp when he goes to turn up the boost. It treated me very well too.
Try to look in the yards around here and you don't have much luck finding TD VW's anymore. However, the prices of the TDI's are starting to come down. Every now and then I see a P-car, a renault and an IDI NA diesel...but most the motors, pumps etc. are all gone now.

Can't say as to whether I agree with your philo on TDI's in the lighter, more agile vw's. With the right suspension and drivetrain setup, and smart driving I believe supplemental power and a good foot will put all that either engine has to offer to the ground in a very good manner. To each his own though. My plan is to build the motor, rock solid, powerful and reliable. Key factory elements mixed with the right about of performance with an old school twist.

As for this project specifically, and IDI's. Man, we have learned alot of valuable information. Though sometimes the poll of knowledge seems a little "closed" when it comes to certain things, ideas, etc. most of us here are always open to share our ideas, thoughts and experiements. Just look at how much Jake has contributed and continues too. I remember when there was just a few of us...or rather, a few of us that we knew of on the internet here and it just grew from there.
I just bought this 79 rabbit just to enjoy "part of" the thrill and simplicity of the motor again and plan to keep it relatively stock...less power but 48mpg, I won't complain there. Your right, there was no similar sound to the IDI TD at high boost. I remember sitting there listing to mine idle and just hearing the turbo purr through the exhaust...very fun. The drive...amazing.
Its also great to see you took all the precautions, etc. to prep for this...though main studs might be a good idea. Though, might be beyond that since it would involve a teardown and line boring of the block to make sure that it is properly aligned when the studs are torqued but maybe things will be fine. There are plenty of TDI's (which run the same mains a rods...wow, 20 years...) running fine with factory bolts (minus the head bolts)
 What'll be more interesting is how it holds the power to 7k, what kind of power it makes and how reliable that power/motor combination is. Sounds bulletproof to me and I'm sure it'll prove it on paper! As always...have fun!

Joe

[BlackTieTD]

You must be lucky in your IDI TD parts around you then because around here they are scarce, and getting harder and harder to find parts for.

i'll attest to that... they are much easier to find up here.
a friend just traded me a complete 1.6TD motor, turbo, manifolds and all (needs rings though) plus a good block, probably-junk-head, and a box full of pistons and other spare parts for a used '84 GTI interior i didn't have any use for anymore. he did this because another guy sold him a good running complete 1.6TD for $100 flat.

if you are into TD motors, it might be worth sourcing a few from up here and pick them all up in one shot. roadtrip!

"my last, a 8v Lysholm Stg 4 corrado bored me"
 :lol: i can't imagine that. would be pulling over 200whp... i know the corrados are a lot more weight to haul around than say a mkI, but those G60-based setups make a lot of torque. you'd have had trouble getting rubber at all in 1st or 2nd... maybe even 3rd with stock gearbox. boring??? man i want to drive what you are driving now then!!!

[RabbitGTDguy]

You are def. lucky up your way then. Its so hard around here anymore to even find NA stuff or complete motors for that matter. For instance...an NA diesel I saw up on the Vortex was going for 600 used, not rebuilt! It was bought. The future of diesel, alternative fuels for them to run, etc. is exactly (as malone mentioned) why I chose to dump the gasser faith and keep my cars all diesel. Though, the gf does have a 1.8T 02 Jetta that we bought, but I myself only own one gasser, and thats the 72 Westy w/ 2.0 and Dells which is nice for the summer time and camping, mtb'in, etc.

As for the corrado. Maybe I should have restated why I was "bored". For the same reason that malone mentioned his concentration on diesels, i lost my interest in the gassers in the same way. No doubt, the fact that the corrado was crazy fast (even for its rather heavy nature IMO) and alot of fun to drive it just "bored" me when it came to the orginality and "untried" factor. In saying that...with the GTD and the IDI TD I had built for it, there were many things that weren't often tried before, nor had the IDI TD's really been played with all that much. I remember the old emails with Jake about his before Mark and I ever even started the last forum...and then slowly over the past few years, things have really taken off it seems...or at least those that we all can now see.
There wasn't anything unique about the stg 4 lysholm setup on the corrado. It had been done, all mods were for the most part bolt on, etc. whereas with the GTD i experiemented with and ran the plenum style intake and even had my own propane setup (boost sensitive) up and running on the car. It got alot more attention than I thought it ever would.

And the other factor with the corrado. Well, everytime something nice was done to it...something else would happen. I should've known in the first place what I was getting into. The car came out of Philly and looked like it had been struck by the vinyl Gods. I converted it to manual transmission initially and from there it was a saga. The PO had carelessly rigged a anti theft system/alarm in the car which didn't agree with the corrados already (from the factory) somewhat tricky and finicky wiring setup. Then...it blew a hole through number 4 and I rebuilt the motor and really carried, or began to carry out what I wanted to do. That was the stg 4 additions, the lysholm, borla exhaust, SNS chip, FK coilovers, etc. etc...even converted the interior over to all leather from an SLC and it just ended up being the same as what someone else had done and didn't really find its way into my heart. Not to mention the curious wiring, the alternator dying on my going down the I90, leaks, etc. that just became a pain to chase. So...maybe its a bit clearer now. The fun in the diesels, as has been mentioned is their prospects for the future and the amount of tuning that anybody actually does to them. The nice thing to see is all the "steps" beyond the normal and bolt-ons that we're so used to are taking on in these forums, especially IDI given the fact that there really aren't ANY IDI TD bolt on mods apart from exhausts for these "old school" motors. Its really, alot of fun.
Maybe next time I'm up that way I will have to look into finding a TD IDI for a good price. I'd love to build one to put into the 79 someday... You guys really are lucky though having an abundance...


Happy Thanksgiving by the way!

Joe