Weird TDi pump timing issue , long post

[the caveman]

So having a strange problem trying to get a 1997 passat TDi to run. Installed pump that was sent out[don't ask] to be resealed. As usual when i removed it i didn't bother marking it's place ,but did notice that the flywheel was close with the pump  and cam locked just before i yanked it out. This car's history is known, like  for instance the clutch has never been done, but a couple of timing belts were, so there shouldn't be any odd problem with something wasn't but back in the right place. This is the  early style TDI motor that hasn't got the adjustable gear ,but instead the pump is moved to adjust timing like the IDI's were. So i put the pump in, crank it to bleed the lines, but it barely runs. I play with the adjustment ,and then it idles but poorly> get the vag-com in and see that the timing is at 255 , idling at 1300 rpms. I  retard the pump  with a prybar [ fun!] to get it about 35-40 o. let it idle . gets better after a few minutes of warming up and i close the rest of the stuff up. 5 minutes later i restar it ,no good again, sounding like it way too retarded. i remove the belt, move the pump completely advanced and try again, get the timing at 55-60 , but still runs like crap. call my TDI guy we both decide the hub must have moved on the shaft during the reseal. so i then trick it but moving the belt first advanced then retarded on the gear, same result. I call the pump rebuilder , he tells me that he never went that far in the reseal for him to have moved the hub. I have also double checked for TDC and that the key was still on the pump gear. I have sent the pump back ,but confidence isn't very high.

[burn_your_money]

You could use a dial indicater like on the IDIs to verify the hub is correct.

[the caveman]

I was wondering if i could use a gauge . then see if i can get it to "zero" then about where -.90-1 mm ?

[burn_your_money]

I'm not sure what the timing spec is. If you get the 10 digit bosch number and call your local friendly pump shop they should be able to tell you.

[the caveman]

So after much head scratching and swearing, and calls to the "rebuilder" i got it going. Realized that because it doesn't have the hub for the adjustable gear like a later TDI pump it couldn't have moved from TDC. As i mentioned before i had moved the belt one tooth advance to see as it seemed the pump wanted more retard. After sending the pump back and the guy telling me that they can't find anything wrong [i know all they do is run it and check for pressure, delivery and leaks, not any functions run by the ECU] . I put it back ,but this time i retarded the belt one tooth . Got running after a couple of shoots, had to advance the pump to get it to the timing spec and voila- it's okay. I suspected it wouldn't fire up once cold again [if there was a problem that the timing advance had gotten somehow jammed ] but it ran fine this morning. It did stall once when i revved it to check for smoke, and wouldn't start because the starter wouldn't engage[ had nothing to do with all the cranking i had doe all week  ] but that's another issue.

[SR Heer]

How can you tell by the sound that a pump is probably needing to be advanced or retarded because first you advanced it by moving the TB what ? one notch counter-clockwise on sproket and then later you said it sounded like it needed to be retarded ? so I was just wondering how or why you thought it needed advancing and or retarding?

Metalnurd's VW TDI Engine Tools - http://www.metalnerd.com  has some real good VW specific (timing) tools and

Tools-World - on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Bosch-VE-Fuel-Injection-Pump-Adapter-Timing-Tool_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518b523668QQitemZ350229771880QQptZMotorsQ5fAutomotiveQ5fTools#ht_1142wt_1167

has the adapter set up for both old and new school VW VE Bosch IP pumps to take static readings at rear of pump and adj timing for $14!

 

[the caveman]

Wasn't much of a sound as much as just to get it running. Depending on what i had done to the belt/pump location sometimes it would run "better" when either retarded or advanced. Once running i would check the timing with vag-com to see where the ECU was reading. That's where i would figure out if it was even in the ballpark. I'll tell you when you are so fustrated, it's fun to force the pump with a 2 foot long pry bar to see how far you can get the timing to adjust to.