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#15
by
macka
on 07 Jun, 2009 15:25
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Fun fact: did you know that "moot" means arguable and does not mean irrelevant? Although in legal terms an arguable point is irrelevant to the argument... jeez this whole post is irrelevant...
must be Sunday
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#16
by
Vincent Waldon
on 07 Jun, 2009 15:51
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Fun fact: did you know that "moot" means arguable and does not mean irrelevant? Although in legal terms an arguable point is irrelevant to the argument... jeez this whole post is irrelevant...
must be Sunday
I like how Joey (from Friends) phases this: he calls it a "moo" point... meaning: it's a cow's opinion, and who cares what a cow thinks?
Yup, Sunday for sure.
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#17
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 07 Jun, 2009 19:21
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it did the same thing with the original ignition switch, as it does now with a new German one, i will try the jumper cables tomorrow,
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#18
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 09 Jun, 2009 15:26
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As Vince already said, if you are jumping the starter correctly and it's still not working then the fault doesn't have anything to do with the ignition. When you're jumping the starter, you're giving positive juice to both the sense wire connection and the lug with the big red wire on it, correct? I assume you must be if it's working on the bench. O.K. Place the vehicle in neutral with the e-brake on (wheel chock too if necessary). Now disconnect both battery cables and all the wires from the starter. Grab a pair of jumper cables. and connect them to the battery. Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it. If the starter does not spin correctly, then you have now determined that it has nothing to do with any of the vehicle wiring. It will have to be either the starter, the battery or the interface between the starter and the engine (teeth missing from the flywheel, bad mounting angle on the starter, bad starter bushing, etc...). I would then remove the negative jumper cable and attach the car's ground strap to the battery and try again. If it works fine then I'd attach just the big red wire and the sense wire to the starter and try again, etc.....
Andrew
tried this, and it actually cranked, i need to get another cable so i can start testing to see where i am losing my power at. i am gonna try relocation battery back under the hood, and try again,
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#19
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 09 Jun, 2009 17:54
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so, i got new cables with good ground/ power sources, a brand new battery, and still nothing, i have narrowed it down to a short between the ignition switch and the starter, or from the battery cable to the ignition switch, so i will start tracing wires, where is a good place to start?
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#20
by
theman53
on 09 Jun, 2009 19:57
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yes, from the battery + on starter to solonoid, just sparks, no i didnt change the bushing, also my battery was relocated in the trunk, and i have a 2 gauge wire relocation kit from Summit racing, and it worked fine all winter, so i dont think thats an issue,
If the bushing doesn't work I would look here. I looked at the summit and other brand relocation kits and they don't have but 3 feet of Negative cable. Something could have corroded over the last few months on the car or where the cable is attached enough to not give you good cranking. My bet is still on the bushing as I had one act similar and in less than 3 months I had ruined the starter, but if not I would give the wiring a try. I too ran 2/0 to the bellhousing for better ground.
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#21
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 10 Jun, 2009 14:17
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If the bushing doesn't work I would look here. I looked at the summit and other brand relocation kits and they don't have but 3 feet of Negative cable. Something could have corroded over the last few months on the car or where the cable is attached enough to not give you good cranking. My bet is still on the bushing as I had one act similar and in less than 3 months I had ruined the starter, but if not I would give the wiring a try. I too ran 2/0 to the bellhousing for better ground.
i already changed the bushing, no difference, i just cleaned the ground connection and greased it, i ran extra ground cables and no difference, my problem is confirmed that i have a short from battery+ to ignition switch, or from ignition switch to starter, because i have no power at the soloniod when in start position, and everything that is key hot in start position loses power when engauged.
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#22
by
theman53
on 10 Jun, 2009 16:54
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show us pics of your ground. Maybe try not greasing it. I didn't read every post yet, but did someone mention that the key switches in these usually start to go bad after about 150,000 miles? All the vw's I have owned but one I have had to put a key switch in.
I read some more and the key switch has been talked about. I might still try to bypass the key switch and see if that works. Maybe something in the wiring from the front to the rear has gotten fried.
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#23
by
clbanman
on 11 Jun, 2009 07:10
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You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that when you turn the ignition key but the engine doesn't crank that the dome light doesn't dim. This means it is NOT an issue with the starter binding or such. That situation would draw so much current that your dome light would dim. You are just losing a connection which would seem to point to the ignition switch circuit or any relays between the switch and starter relay OR a ground issue. Put a test light at the start terminal on the starter relay using a known good chassis ground for the test light and see if you are consistently getting a signal when turning the ignition key. I would also use jumpers and a second known good battery to bypass your trunk mounted one and see if the engine cranks then.
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#24
by
myke_w
on 11 Jun, 2009 07:59
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Out of curiosity, where does your battery ground wire go?
Generally they go from the battery to the body, to the trans mount, to the forward upper bolt on the belhousing.
I realize you replaced the cable, but if you had a bad engine / body / battery ground you'd see this problem.
and if doing this
Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it.
makes the starter work, while simply bridging the hot and sense connection does not make it work, is a dead giveway.
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#25
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 11 Jun, 2009 18:07
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You mentioned in one of your earlier posts that when you turn the ignition key but the engine doesn't crank that the dome light doesn't dim. This means it is NOT an issue with the starter binding or such. That situation would draw so much current that your dome light would dim. You are just losing a connection which would seem to point to the ignition switch circuit or any relays between the switch and starter relay OR a ground issue. Put a test light at the start terminal on the starter relay using a known good chassis ground for the test light and see if you are consistently getting a signal when turning the ignition key. I would also use jumpers and a second known good battery to bypass your trunk mounted one and see if the engine cranks then.
yea, i know its not a starter and or bushing problem, i went thru the relays and cannot find which one is starter relay, my bentley didnt even mention starter relay, i already moved battery up from using jumper cables and hooked it up to starter and it cranked, so i know its an issue with wiring from b+ to ignition switch, or from ignition switch to starter relay (where ever that is) or a ground issue that i have not found yet.
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#26
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 11 Jun, 2009 18:12
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Out of curiosity, where does your battery ground wire go?
Generally they go from the battery to the body, to the trans mount, to the forward upper bolt on the belhousing.
I realize you replaced the cable, but if you had a bad engine / body / battery ground you'd see this problem.
and if doing this Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it.
makes the starter work, while simply bridging the hot and sense connection does not make it work, is a dead giveway.
ok, my battery grounds are as follows, the relocation kit has its ground on the trunk latch, the 0 gage ground cables end fits perfectly into the screw for that, ground is sanded down to bare metal, diolectic grease applied, ground under the hood are from the top of driver side trans mount to the body frame rail, i do not have anything on bell housing, and it never did, at least since ive owned the car, i put anohter ground cable directly on the starter and grounded to strut mount, and no change,
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#27
by
Vincent Waldon
on 11 Jun, 2009 19:59
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Yeah, your car has no starter relay.
OK, at three pages this is getting a bit hard to follow. Let's see if these are the facts:
- if you turn the key to "start" the starter clicks but doesn't turn and the lights in the car, dash, etc dim
- if you apply power directly to the starter body and main stud via jumper cables and then use a screwdriver etc to bridge between the main starter stud and ignition terminal on the starter the car turns over properly
- you've got a known good battery, starter, starter bushing, and, as far as you can tell, good heavy duty battery wiring and grounds via a battery relocation kit.
Is the above a reasonable summary? If I've got any of the details wrong let's clarify... the details are important!
If so... what happens if you use a screwdriver etc to run power from the big starter stud to the ignition terminal on the starter (no jumper cables, just using the car's own electrical system) ?
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#28
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 13 Jun, 2009 09:38
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Yeah, your car has no starter relay.
OK, at three pages this is getting a bit hard to follow. Let's see if these are the facts:
- if you turn the key to "start" the starter clicks but doesn't turn and the lights in the car, dash, etc dim
- if you apply power directly to the starter body and main stud via jumper cables and then use a screwdriver etc to bridge between the main starter stud and ignition terminal on the starter the car turns over properly
- you've got a known good battery, starter, starter bushing, and, as far as you can tell, good heavy duty battery wiring and grounds via a battery relocation kit.
Is the above a reasonable summary? If I've got any of the details wrong let's clarify... the details are important!
If so... what happens if you use a screwdriver etc to run power from the big starter stud to the ignition terminal on the starter (no jumper cables, just using the car's own electrical system) ?
1-Key on Start, starter sometimes clicks 2-3 times them nothing more. other times nothing at all. headlights go completly off, no dim, just off, but dome light stays on, nice and bright, my volt meter drops off completly, and my idiot lights go crazy, some on, some off, and sometimes they stay on, even after i take the key out, no difference with new ignition switch
2-yes.
3-yes.
If i use a screwdriver to run power from starter lug to ignition terminal on starter, the first 2-3 times, it clicks, and u can hear relays in the car clicking also, but nothing more, after the 2-3 times it clicks, it wont click any more, just sparks lightly,
even if i have the wire to ignition terminal on starter disconnected, and turn key to start, i loose power everywhere just as if it was connected.
i ran a 10 gauge wire from battery + to ingition terminal on starter turned key to ON, and connected wire, it did the same thing, clicked 2-3 times, then just sparked and wouldnt click anymore.
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#29
by
Vincent Waldon
on 13 Jun, 2009 10:29
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BTW, just to clarify... your headlights are supposed to go off when you turn the key to start. They, and other major current circuits like the rear window defogger etc, go thru a load reduction relay that is turned off when the key is in the start position... this frees up more power for the starter.
Your idiot lights may also do some random blinking... there are several timing circuits at work.
As Andrew says, it is sounding more and more like your problem is one of the big current paths... and jumper cables are a great way to run a temporary bypass.
When did all this start, btw? Had any work been done to the car?