Author Topic: MY ABF set-up  (Read 21518 times)

January 30, 2009, 09:32:51 am

ashleyroe

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« on: January 30, 2009, 09:32:51 am »
figured since i didn't see that many people posted anything on this and the search didn't bring up much, that i would post mine so people could see.

it's only partially finished at the moment.







can't wait till it's finished.



Reply #1January 30, 2009, 02:00:41 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 02:00:41 pm »
WHere did you get the kit? PartsPlace?

I'm marginally worried about that harmonic balancer on a 1.6 with a key-way slot on the crankshaft. That's the same recipe for the AAZ crankshaft nose failure. You might want to make sure your crank sprocket is new, along with a new bolt and ALOT of locktite on the bolt. Even that might not save you.

You may want to read up the AAZ issue. Search "AAZ and CRANK".

Having said that, you may not have a problem, so long as your alternator has a clutch in it. Which, it doesn't look like you do. That looks like a stock alternator pulley.

That could be disastrous in about 1-2 years.

Reply #2January 30, 2009, 02:41:26 pm

Vincent Waldon

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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 02:41:26 pm »
Here's one thread on adding the clutched pulley to the serpentine alternator so as to save the crank nose:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15010
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #3January 30, 2009, 05:35:24 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 05:35:24 pm »
Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"
Here's one thread on adding the clutched pulley to the serpentine alternator so as to save the crank nose:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15010


Real good stuff there. Nice post Vince.

Reply #4January 31, 2009, 06:46:11 pm

ashleyroe

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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 06:46:11 pm »
excuse my ignorance, but i'm alittle unsure of what you guys are telling me.

i don't see how this set up is a problem or what happens if i do run this.




also since that link is someone adding a/c and i do not have any acessories in my car.

and the fact that this set up is made for any engine, including diesels.
unless the dealer does not know what they are talking about.

this kit is not a knock off from some random parts place.
it normally sells for $400 dollars but i pieced together my own, with part numbers which made it sensibly cheaper.


thank you though for bringing this to my attention if it is a real issue i should be looking out for. once again as my other thread states, i am new to diesels.

here is the thread i got the idea from for reference, it was the only reasonable way for us to run no a/c in my car as we tried many other belt set ups with no luck...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3871186

Reply #5January 31, 2009, 07:09:16 pm

burn_your_money

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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 07:09:16 pm »
The problem is that the serp setup doesn't slip like a v-belt. The alternator pulses mixed with all the other pulses (engine, pump etc) stresses the key on the crank gear. It eventually wears enough and there goes your pistons, straight into your valves :evil:
Tyler

Reply #6January 31, 2009, 07:54:43 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 07:54:43 pm »
There have been quite a few folks on here that had problems with AAZ crankshaft keyways. It's a world-wide phenomenon.

As noted by others, the combination of a harmonic balancer, and a fixed-pulley on the alternator puts a good deal of stress on the crank sprocket.

If the crank bolt is not properly torqued when removed/installed (and even sometimes, when it's never been touched), the sprocket can rock back and forth in it's keyway. Through time, this will wear the sides of the crank keyway, and in the worst case scenario, jump time and do damage to the valves and pistons.

The ideal and permanent fix if it ever happens to you, is to do any one of several tricks:

1) Remove the crankshaft, and weld the nose (sprocket end) of the crankshaft. Then, have it broached to accept the TDI sprocket, which has a flat spot and no keyway:

http://www.msnusers.com/gtdforum/shoebox.msnw?Page=3


2) Fix it on the car using a jig and a broach, as outlined in the link above.

3) Use metal dowel pins and drill into your crank nose and sprocket to secure the sprocket and prevent it from rocking. There are several write ups on Vortex about people who've used dowel pins on crank noses (usually 16v or G60 cars).

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3793916


If you want to read up on some cases, check out the following links

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3959069
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3988582

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1010&start=0
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2719
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5874
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=14722

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17422&highlight=


The last one is a recent AAZ crank nose failure on a UK Vanagon.

What this has to do with your ABF setup is that, like the AAZ, you'll be running a heavy harmonic balancer, and an alternator, that at high speeds, will have a lot of rotational inertia. So, when you let off the gas, the motor slows down quickly, but the alternator may still be trying to rotate forward after the engine has already slowed down. Because of the added-contant tension on the belt from the spring-loaded tensioner, there is no way for the alternator to release that inertia energy.

The VW factory solution was to install a pulley on the alternator that only spun one-way (as posted by Vince above). When the engine is not pushing the alternator, it free-wheels so to speak, when the engine powers down. This relieves the counter-acting forces which put stress on the crank-shaft pulley.

I know it might suck thinking about putting another $150 into an alternator pulley, but if you look at any of those threads listed above, you can see that the alternative is much worse.

Just a thought.

Reply #7February 01, 2009, 12:32:55 pm

ashleyroe

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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 12:32:55 pm »
i noticed on everyone of those links the car's are TD and TDI's.

does it matter that my car isn't?

Reply #8February 01, 2009, 01:37:58 pm

Vincent Waldon

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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 01:37:58 pm »
It's the unloading side of the equation (ie when you take your foot off the pedal) that  causes the "torque in the opposite direction to normal" on the crank sprocket... and can eventually wobble the sprocket loose.  "Unloading" happens with the same abruptness regardless of if you have a turbo or not. :wink:

Don't let us freak you out... you've assembled a great kit of quality parts and are going to enjoy having a single serpentine belt.  If you have time some day posting the various part numbers would likely a huge help to those who follow your footsteps.

It is a fact, unfortunately, that when VW switched to the serpentine belt they soon discovered a weakness in the design of the crank nose when it gets subjected to the unloading forces of a bigger harmonic balancer pulley in combination with the smaller alternator pulley.  Many of us AAZ owners have inherited the result :cry:.   VW's response was to switch crank nose designs and add a clutched pulley to the alternator.

As long as you're:

- using a crank and crank sprocket with keyways in great condition
- using a brand new stretch crank bolt
- fastidious about torquing it exactly using the full factory procedure for stretch bolts
- giving some thought to replacing the solid alternator pulley with the clutched design (they seem to have dropped in price lately btw).  It looks like you've sourced a new pulley specific for this application... perhaps it has a different offset and thus not compatible with the clutched design tho.

you should be gold. :wink:
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #9March 08, 2009, 10:48:47 pm

wizard-of-od

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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 10:48:47 pm »
Ok Ashley as made me aware of this thread as you guys are scaring her a little too much....

Let it be known that we have ABF alternator kits on AAZ and AFN's for almost 3 years now with NO issues and I have been selling these for as long as I could remember.
Quote from: "Quantum TD"

Because of the added-contant tension on the belt from the spring-loaded tensioner, there is no way for the alternator to release that inertia energy.

:?
There is no tension on the belt from the spring.The spring is there to "push" the alternator out then once the belt is tight you secure the alternator with an M8 bolt.The spring has now done its job and infact we dont even sell the spring with the kit as it:
1. is expensive
2. is dangerous to compress (it is a gearbox spring)
3. is a pain in the ass to install
4. does not provide tension.
Simply pry the alternator out and tension the belt to suite.
Quote from: "Quantum TD"

If the crank bolt is not properly torqued when removed/installed (and even sometimes, when it's never been touched), the sprocket can rock back and forth in it's key way. Through time, this will wear the sides of the crank key way, and in the worst case scenario, jump time and do damage to the valves and pistons.

This is an issue with 1.8T,G60 and NUMEROUS other VAG engines,not just diesel units.

The G60 nor the early 1.8T motors had clutches on the alternator pulleys and some held up fine to 300,000+ km's whereas others failed leaving the show room.Its no secret that the issue lies with the MAINTENANCE of these motors.The crankshaft front seal leaks around 130,000 km's forcing users to change them which requires the removal of the crankshaft timing gear bolt.Unfortunately for most improperly installing this will cause failure whether it is in 2 weeks 2 months or 2 years....

What I usually do is wedge a piece of wood between the crankcase and the crankshaft and use a 4 foot long torque bar for installing to correct OEM specs.
I have worked on AAZ's with complete serpentine set ups from new and we are now in 2009.Never once an issue with a failed crankshaft keyway.

Quote from: "Quantum TD"

As noted by others, the combination of a harmonic balancer, and a fixed-pulley on the alternator puts a good deal of stress on the crank sprocket..

The harmonic dampner does QUITE the opposite.It absorbs the energy,not transfers it....
I guess we need to add a clutch onto the water pump pulley as well?
The scenario you are describing is far fetched and you are more likely to bend your valves over revving a diesel than you are with failing a crankshaft snout with a non clutch alternator pulley.
Issam N. Abed
INAEngineering.Com
AIM : ISSAMABED | PHONE : 613.867.8667 | 510.275.4775

Reply #10March 09, 2009, 11:08:01 am

lord_verminaard

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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 11:08:01 am »
Is it just me, or does the serp crank pulley that she posted look different than the standard keyway pulley on the 1.9's?  (the opening that is) Maybe we are comparing two different designs here....

Either way, Issam has been around in the VW tuning scene for a long time, I trust his judgment.  Not that I don't trust the rest of you guys either, I'm just wondering if we are comparing apples to oranges.

Brendan
81 Scirocco 'S -->Soon to be m-TDI
93 Corrado SLC VR6
'86 Golf N/A Diesel  -->Wife's car
1990 Audi CQ
05 New Beetle PD TDI


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Reply #11March 09, 2009, 02:26:29 pm

jtanguay

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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 02:26:29 pm »
the TDI longblock i bought from Europe has about 160,000 kilometers on it (or less) and the keyway was damaged.  by damaged i mean the crank sprocket was a pretty loose fit.  it had to be welded up and filed for a good fit.  if i would have ran the engine with like this, i could probably expect a few years of normal driving out of it, or maybe just a few months if i was driving like i stole it. i do believe that there are definitely stresses from the alternator, but they will take a very long time to show up.  most cars start showing signs at 300,000km's.  

although very rare, even some cars with the V-belt setup have shown signs of the crank pulley trouble.

this information is definitely not intended to scare anyone.  it is the same reason why we post about the cheap infuse of chinese parts into the market, and the reason people need to do a due dilligence on whatever parts they are installing on their cars.  there are countless documented crank failures, which proves that it occurs, and that the serpentine belt is the root cause.  of course driving style might have something to do with it as well...

i started a thread a while back about the feasibility of using a stud instead of a crank bolt.  IMO the stud could be torqued far more than the crank bolt, and the stud wouldn't back out the same as the crank bolt.  as a bonus, the stud could also be re-used  :wink:


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Reply #12March 09, 2009, 03:28:26 pm

Vincent Waldon

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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 03:28:26 pm »
Momentum is a big part of this, IMHO.

Spin the water pump pulley by hand.  How hard was it to spin? How long did it stay spinning?  If you wanted to stop it spinning with your hand how hard would it be?

Now do the same thing with the AAZ-style alternator pulley.  Much harder to start spinning, wants to spin much longer, hard on your fingers to stop it spinning.

That's momentum in action... and likely one of the reasons why VW put a clutched pulley on the some implementations of the serpentine alternator but didn't bother with the water pump.   ;-)
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #13March 09, 2009, 08:21:28 pm

wizard-of-od

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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 08:21:28 pm »
Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"

That's momentum in action... and likely one of the reasons why VW put a clutched pulley on the some implementations of the serpentine alternator but didn't bother with the water pump.   ;-)

Thanks for the definition on momentum...I forgot I was a Mech. Engineer for a minute. :roll:  
The likely reason why VW put clutch pulleys on some models but not others is COST.Yes they do have a purpose and yes you do have a point but to state that a non clutched pulley will cause your crankshaft keyway to wear is a bit of a far fetch IMHO.Look @ what the torque rating for the crankshaft bolt is.
Further more VW runs these engines on dyno's for 100,000's of km's before they even find there way into a chassis.I am pretty confident that they knew what they were doing when they developed these engines.

Quote from: "libbybapa"

That being said, yes the crank serp pulley shown is not what is typically found on the AAZ.
Regardless, I don't see how the pulley design would have any effect at all on the failure.

Andrew

Andrew,
The pulley I use is a 06A 1.8T crankshaft pulley.It is a better upgrade from the stock v-belt pulleys as it has a built in harmonic dampner.The AAZ pulley (028 105 243T) you have shown is extremely expensive and not available for under $250US....I know because I bought all that overland had  :wink:
You are correct.The crankshaft design would not have an effect on the failure of the crank bolt.

Quote from: "libbybapa"
The crank/sprocket failure due to the combination of standard keyway sprocket, serpentine belt and solid alt pulley is very prevalent and well-known.  Nothing has been posted to "scare" anyone, but rather to assist in preventing very expensive engine destruction.  I would not run the serpentine setup on any engine with the standard keyway or solid alt pulley.  
Andrew

The issue I have with the above is that allthough it is "well known" it is simply unproven.I have been involved with alot of high performance builds (700+hp) and I can tell you the biggest issue with these engines is harmonics.
I am going to have a very hard time believing that a non clutch alternator pulley will cause catastrophic failure to a problem that stems all across the VAG board.What does that tell me? That tells me that whether it is diesel,gas ,external water pump block or internal water pump block the problem lies elsewhere.
I actually spoke with ARP 3+ years ago about either a stud & nut kit OR an ARP bolt kit for the crankshaft sprocket.Unfortunately the supply vs demand was slim to none.
Right now I am looking into getting larger harmonic dampners made for both high performance gasoline and diesel engines.Dont think I am trying to come here and prove any of you wrong.If you want to believe that your keyway is going to fail and that you need to pin your pulley then by all means go for it.

p.s. There are some BRP & ALH motors that have non clutched Alternators  :wink:
Issam N. Abed
INAEngineering.Com
AIM : ISSAMABED | PHONE : 613.867.8667 | 510.275.4775

Reply #14March 09, 2009, 08:41:39 pm

Vincent Waldon

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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 08:41:39 pm »
Quote from: "wizard-of-od"

Thanks for the definition on momentum...I forgot I was a Mech. Engineer for a minute. :roll:  


Unlike other spots on the web the idea here is to check the ego at the door and learn from each other, regardless of background.  None of us work for VW as engine designers so everyone's opinion is just that... an opinion, and a valid one... when expressed respectfully.

Your sarcasm is frankly not appreciated.

In this case, my personal thoughts on momentum were not intended for any mechanical engineers in the group but were in fact a reflection that this group has people at varied levels of knowledge and understanding... myself included, and thinking about momentum is one angle to consider when pondering this particular design.

Everyone has a perspective... some may be closer to the truth than others... but in the end we're here to learn from each other.  I'd respectfully ask that we all take the tone of this particular thread down a notch, recognize that there are many many ways to interpolate what was on the mind of those wacky VW designers, and carry on learning from each other.

'Nuff said... back to the discussion.:wink:
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta