can't start car

[jasonsansfleece]

Hi there,

At the mother in law's house. Long way from home. Trying to get her car to work. She's got a 2003 TDI diesel jetta wagon that has been confounding everyone's attempts to make it work. She's on Martha's Vineyard, and can't find anyone who seems to know what they are doing. (If you know anyone on MV who does, let us know immediately please.)

Anyway, we went online and read about relay 109, and thought this might be the solution. We just changed it out and it was not the salvation we were looking for. We thought this might be the answer because the symptoms she was describing: car starts and runs, but then when she turns it off and goes to start it again, it won't start. That sounded like what people were saying about Relay 109. However, I just read something about the fact that since Relay 109 controls the computer, the glow plug light would not light up if this were the case. Mom is saying that the glow plug light DOES come on, it's just that the car won't start.

The symptoms are: and I just want to qualify this by saying that I am  familiar with IDI engines but never been anywhere near a TDI and am far from home without a Bentley manual. So when the ignition is switched on, all the various idiot lights come on. Glow plug lamp included. Turn the key the engine fires once or twice no more. If you continue to crank it will not fire but at the tail pipe there is a definite smell of diesel and even a little white smoke which suggests to me that it is injecting fuel but it is not igniting.

Any help ASAP would be fantastic...
Mom being without a car and seemingly unable to figure out how to deal with it. There are a lot of dealer recalls on this model, the plan was that we were going to get it running and then get it off the island and get it to a dealer, which doesn't exist here on the rock. But, since the Relay 109 thing didn't pan out, we are now trying to immediately familiarize ourselves with a TDI that seems to be pretty buggy.

Thanks for any help,

Guy and Lizzie

[shegel]

this happened to my moms 98 tdi when we first got it. we thought it was the intake cloging up but when that was cleaned and it still did it, that was ruled out. it ended up being the timing in our case. i cant remember if it was to retarded or too advanced. iirc it was retarded. the only difference between yours and mine is that after about 30-60 sec it would start. if you can get it to start find somone with a vag-com if you dont have one and check the timing.

[jasonsansfleece]

update, fuel at each injector when the union is cracked. Smell of diesel wisps of white smoke at tailpipe.
Is this engine a PD? It does not look like a common rail. It looks much like a IDI with a diferent pump. The third injector has a sensor, which tells the ECU when its injecting? So injecton timing is mechanical or electronic?
If this was my 85 golf and I had similar symptoms and diagnosese, I would check compresion and ignition timing. I have not the means to test either with me.

[shegel]

its just a regular tdi i think i dont htink they went to the common rail untill a few years later. white smoke means timing from my experience. but then again i've only had one tdi untill now and my new one (my first car thats actually in my name) is only showing minimal signs of hard starting.

do you have a vag com? bentley? (im asuming not on the bentley because i just re read your first post.)

[shegel]

even thought the car is a 03 you still have to change the timing via the ip instead of the computer. vag com is just a way of verifying that is the problem and to not go to far in moving it.

i saw somone type on a diff website that if you see the pump move you probably did and you went to far.

[Tintin]

Really difficult to diagnose via a forum.

What happened when the engine stopped running?

Timing belt are in good condition,  or it's a 300000km timing belt with big crack...........      valve bend.......   :cry:

Gaz on the tank instead of diesel?

[the caveman]

TDI's won't start if the starter doesn't crank fast enough. The IP will pump fuel but the ecm needs to see either 300 or 500 rpm's before it will supply the right amount. Even if it cranks, try boosting it to see if that helps. The starters can turn but still be too weak to crank it fast enough. I would also check the timing through a  vag-com. Has to be at least 50 in channel 000/02.

[jasonsansfleece]

The car is running.
Found someone on the island with VAG-COM and took it over there.
He figured it out imediatly, with out the VAG-COM.
The EGR valve was sticky and not returning when the engine was switched off. On restart the valve was open. Give the valve a little boost with a finger. It snaps shut and she starts.
This guy says he has seen this before, the intake manifold from the EGR valve forward, choked with soot. A symptom of low speed driving apparently. The speed limit is 45mph on the island.  
This is also a lesson in taking you car to the right person (if you have to)
The previous mechanic (not VW) charged her $1000 to try and repair it.
He changed the battery, the glow plugs, the fuel filter twice and then gave up.
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions,
Guy

[Smokey Eddy]

battery, the glow plugs, the fuel filter twice and then gave up

Expensive batt, glowplugs and fuel filters for $1000. I realize paying a mechanic if often the only way, and i have nothing against them of course! but's its way too expensive to justify the means in a lot of cases. In yours Id say it was very much the right thing to do. Getting your hands on a VAG-COM without paying for it would be very difficult  
After reading for a few hours on the IDI section i'm never going to need to pay a mechanic again except for injectors and injection pump as i don't have the equipment to do it.
BUT mechanics is largely labour intensive after all.

Glad to hear it worked out  

[the caveman]

Forgot about that issue. It's not the EGR , it's a feature to make sure the motor stops when you want it to. It works something like this: when the solinoid gets a shut down  signal it lets vacuum to the valve to then close what looks like a throttle plate, which of course stops any air from entering the motor, which then effectively stops the motor. Stops the shudder some diesels have when shutting down. VW put this device to make their diesels more palatable for the general public.  News for VW: the public doesn't like it if their cars don't start !

[shegel]

isnt it called a shudder valve?

[the caveman]

I believe so, or maybe an anti-shudder valve. I could look in the study literature, but that means making an effort. [it's sunday morning don't you know ].

[avocado]

Ya, I've heard of this anti shudder valve causing this before.  Gets a bit gunked up with oils and does not reopen when the engine is started.

[jasonsansfleece]

You are quite right, having had it apart to clean and seen how it works.
And thank you for the explanation of what that butterfly valve actually does.
That whole assembly, with the two valves in it, was choked with 1/4" of greasy soot over every surface.
Now there was some oil in the intake hose immediatly before the valve (blow by? 110,000 miles)
Cooled air from the IC with some oil in it, meets hot sooty gas from the EGR in the valve body, where it condenses/ collects?
I imagine there are one or two other TDI's out there who could benefit from such a cleaning,
Thanks
Guy

[ricosuave]

look on tdiclub.com for any local gurus who can help you out next time something goes on...

glad to hear youre up and running again