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Author Topic: Bosch pump sensor question  (Read 7126 times)

September 03, 2008, 07:00:21 am

DA-BRT

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Bosch pump sensor question
« on: September 03, 2008, 07:00:21 am »
I found on a pump from a customer a sensor in the high pressure head. This sensor was there instead of the bolt that normaly has to be taken out to set the injection timing for the pump.

Because it was difficult to mount this sensor again and it wasn't connected I left it out.

I want to know what kind of sensor this is. I think it's a pressure sensor to measure the pressure in the pump head. Does anybody has more information?

The german name I found is: Saugrohrdruck : Free translation Suck hose pressure

Bosch number is: 1 467 200 303 (later replaced by 1 467 200 311 according to the only information I found on the internet)

VW number I also found is: 028 907 319 E price approximately € 224

I will make a picture of it asap.



Reply #1September 03, 2008, 07:53:15 am

burn_your_money

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 07:53:15 am »
I beleive that is a start of injection sensor and if the car is using electronics it will need that. I imagine it is for emmisions and fuel economy
Tyler

Reply #2September 03, 2008, 08:23:07 am

DA-BRT

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 08:23:07 am »
I thought that it was build on a Vento (your Jetta mk3) 1.9TD 1996

So one of the last AAZ engines without electronics. But with some mods for the emissions.

Reply #3September 03, 2008, 10:14:56 am

gigaz2

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 10:14:56 am »
I thought that was the immo valve.

if you have no use for it, would you consider sell it to me? I would love to compare the signal that comes from the nº3 injector with that one ;)
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Reply #4September 03, 2008, 03:46:20 pm

DA-BRT

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 03:46:20 pm »
@gigaz2:
Quote
do NOT follow my advices or opinions!!! you are warned!


I want to use it myself as soon as I got more information. I'm already bussy designing a setup to measure the intjection timing.

I'm using the Top dead point sensor in the engineblock. Together with the sensor in the third injector or this one I want to determine the angle of injection timing.

Only this sensor is giving every 360 crank degrees 2 pulses instead of one puls every 720 crank degrees.


Reply #5September 03, 2008, 07:17:50 pm

Baxter

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 07:17:50 pm »
As far as I know and understand it's basically the same as a needle lift senson on a tdi, it senses the start of injection and alters the timing via the solenoid on the bottom of the pump.
The engine should also have a small ECU that sorts the cold starts out and messes with the timing, there is a certain amount of self diagnosis as well I believe but never bothered plugging one in.
It's fitted to late AAZ's.

Reply #6September 03, 2008, 09:06:40 pm

gigaz2

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 09:06:40 pm »
wait... what TDC sensor? I have a #3 lucas electronic injector on my idi already, but to measure anything I need a reference point, TDC would be great, where did you put yours? is the IDI block drilled to accept it?
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Reply #7September 03, 2008, 11:30:26 pm

Vincent Waldon

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 11:30:26 pm »
I looked this puppy up in Bosch's "Distributor-Type Diesel Fuel-Injection Pump" yellow jacket.

Bosch calls it a Delivery Signal Sensor (DSS)... it's a piezo-type transducer with a range of 0-400 bar.  An on-board circuit converts the 0-400 bar pressure signal inside the delivery chamber into a TTL-level square wave that the ECU uses to determine :

- start of delivery
- duration of delivery
- end of delivery
- pump speed

The yellow/white wire is "power" and the gray/white wire is "signal out"... a 0-5V square wave.

Based on the signal graphs there's a small amount of offset between the actual beginning of the injection stroke and the upstroke of the resultant square wave.... and the same for the tail... so if you're using it for absolute timing a small amount of correction may be required.  The x-axis on the graph they show isn't labeled so it's hard to say how many degrees this is.

Bosch says that the pressure range of this particular sensor "makes it suitable for mounting on IDI pumps" so you m-TDI guys need not apply !!!



hth,

Vince
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

Reply #8September 04, 2008, 02:44:21 am

DA-BRT

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 02:44:21 am »
@gigaz2: I use a TDI engineblock with AAZ pistons and head on Polo 6N. Stock the TDI engineblocks have the TDC sensor. I think it is possible to drill the hole in the engineblock and insert a tdi crank with sensor ring.

@Andrew: Correct!

@Vincent: Thanks for the large amount of information.

I think I will use my PID (Auber instruments) to read out the pressure to see if the sensor is still functioning. After that I can start using it to read it out on the laptop together with the internal IP pressure and the rpm to see if they are lineair.

Reply #9September 04, 2008, 07:12:48 am

gigaz2

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 07:12:48 am »
wow, very nice info :D

DA-BRT, as Vince explained, the output of that sensor is digital, only a fast microcontroller can interpret it.

I also thought it would be like the sensors on common-rail systems, but if has a circuit inside to make it digital, .. no pressure information, just timing :(

I imagine it like this:

_________|""""""""""""""""""""""""""""|______________________

               1<2>3

1:start of delivery
2:duration of delivery
3:end of delivery

pump speed is a simple "cycle per second" to "cycle per minute" (RPM)
convertion
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Reply #10September 04, 2008, 07:25:06 am

DA-BRT

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 07:25:06 am »
As soon as I have checked it I will give my feedback.

We use a lot of applications in our diesel group to log sensors. Think we will get this one work also.

Reply #11September 04, 2008, 07:46:38 am

gigaz2

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 07:46:38 am »
I develop microcontroller projects to do just that ;)

the idea of a VP37 with 1.9IDI cam, computer controlled can't get out of my mind...
more timing, more fuel, feedback on what is going on... bliss :lol:

EDIT: wasn't Redrotors developing something like that?
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Reply #12September 04, 2008, 10:00:06 am

Vincent Waldon

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Bosch pump sensor question
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 10:00:06 am »
Quote from: "gigaz2"
wow, very nice info :D

DA-BRT, as Vince explained, the output of that sensor is digital, only a fast microcontroller can interpret it.

I also thought it would be like the sensors on common-rail systems, but if has a circuit inside to make it digital, .. no pressure information, just timing :(

I imagine it like this:

_________|""""""""""""""""""""""""""""|______________________

               1<2>3

1:start of delivery
2:duration of delivery
3:end of delivery

pump speed is a simple "cycle per second" to "cycle per minute" (RPM)
convertion


You got it... no pressure info is available external to the sensor... just the timing as a square wave exactly as you've surmised... and as I mention, because it's a square wave there's a tiny bit of lag at the leading edge and a bit of advance chop-off at the trailing edge, compared to the actual pressure dynamic.

The OP asked me for a few more details on my source... it's the Bosch Yellow Jacket "Distributor-Type Diesel Fuel-Injection Pumps", 2003 edition.  I got mine directly from Bosch but can't navigate their web site this morning to reverse-engineer where you order literature from... Robert Bentley sells them as well:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=H144

Bosch publishes a whack of Yellow Jackets on a variety of automotive tech subjects... this particular one covers the VE and VP pumps (helix and port controlled, axial and radial piston) although in a OEM-agnostic manner... no particulars on specific VW implementations, for example.

Highly recommended.... as as I recall they were $USD  17.00 each direct from Bosch.


Vince
Vince

Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
2001 silver TDI Jetta Malone Stage 1.5 , 2001 blue TDI Jetta SBIII 216s Malone Stage 3, 1970 Bay Window bus

Gone but not forgotten: 1969/1971 Beetles, 1969/1974 Westies, 1979 Rabbit, 1986 TD Jetta, 1992 gas Jetta, 1994 TD Jetta

 

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