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#15 by westyman on 21 Aug, 2008 08:08
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Quote from: "Kudagra"
Ive met more people with "30+ years of experience" in a field that are full of crap then not.
Im not saying you are one of them but its just a red flag for me. Just means those people are more apt to have bad habits.
PARDON ME, but do you know me? And how does this statement contribute to this discussion? Seems like a few folks think experience and skill matter not. :roll: -
#16 by zukgod1 on 21 Aug, 2008 08:22
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Quote from: "westyman"
Seems like a few folks think experience and skill matter not. :roll:
I agree completely. Seems most of the time we are judged by our post count :?
Truly there is little replacement for skill and experience. -
#17 by jackbombay on 21 Aug, 2008 08:33
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Quote from: "westyman"Quote from: "jackbombay"
FWIW, not my personal experience, but a friend has a 1.9 TD in his westy and was having hot oil issues. He swapped in the super monster oil to coolant "oil cooler", the one thats way bigger than the V6 oil cooler, his oil temps remained mostly unchanged. Hes looking at oil to air coolers now.
I've seen more Vanagon conversion plumbed wrong than right.
"Wrong" being done as stock? And "right" be plumbed different than stock? Or is the stock plumbing correct? I'm not sure how his is set-up... -
#18 by westyman on 21 Aug, 2008 08:41
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Quote from: "jackbombay"
"Wrong" being done as stock? And "right" be plumbed different than stock? Or is the stock plumbing correct? I'm not sure how his is set-up...
I've found the exact routing and hoses VW used in the '83-up vans to provide the best cooling (that's what I refer to as 'right)'. I tried using the original AAZ bypass (pump to head hose) hose setup and it really didn't work as well.
Adding in the V6's larger cooler only enhances this. In my experience.
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#19 by RabbitJockey on 21 Aug, 2008 15:31
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so are we all friends that just love vw diesels now? i hope so :^)
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#20 by JohnnyT on 21 Aug, 2008 15:47
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well westy it's good to see you posting and i hope you dont leave the larger knowledge pool to pull from when needed the better. As far as experence i have been a bmw tech for quite a few years now and have seen tech's with 20+ years that are a full sponge of information and others that should still be parking lot attendants. I still have 2 3 series mine and the wife's and will be getting rid of one of them to build an m-tdi mk2 when i find the right mk2 for me. The reason for the switch is how simple the vw diesels are alot more hands on with pump mods etc. then the double vanos drive by wire can bus system computer controlled bmw's no tinkering there sorry for the off topic babbiling.
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#21 by jtanguay on 21 Aug, 2008 17:07
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my personal opinion on this cooling thing:
with the bigger V6 coolant/oil exchanger you do get more heat transfered to the coolant, but you also need to upgrade the cooling system to cope with the extra heat. dual fan setup, bigger rad, or even an auxiliary (smaller) rad would help to remove that extra heat. OR... you could go with an air/oil cooler in a 'strategic' location :wink:
and yes, IDI's create considerably more heat than TDI's. mostly due to the pre-combustion chambers. more fuel is turned into mechanical energy than wasted heat energy
btw Johnny you forgot to mention the fuel savings as a reason for the switch :lol: -
#22 by JohnnyT on 21 Aug, 2008 17:30
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fuel savings isn't the primary reason but a nice side benefit extra money for other projects
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#23 by westyman on 21 Aug, 2008 17:33
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Quote from: "jtanguay"
my personal opinion on this cooling thing:
with the bigger V6 coolant/oil exchanger you do get more heat transfered to the coolant, but you also need to upgrade the cooling system to cope with the extra heat. dual fan setup, bigger rad, or even an auxiliary (smaller) rad would help to remove that extra heat. OR... you could go with an air/oil cooler in a 'strategic' location :wink:
and yes, IDI's create considerably more heat than TDI's. mostly due to the pre-combustion chambers. more fuel is turned into mechanical energy than wasted heat energy
When talking Vanagons, the radiator is already large enough, no need to upgrade there. What is often a problem is folks doing a conversion and using an old plugged-up radiator. I almost always replace the rad in every conversion.
IDI's create maybe a little bit more heat, stock for stock, but there are so many variables once you start modding things. -
#24 by jtanguay on 21 Aug, 2008 19:10
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Quote from: "westyman"Quote from: "jtanguay"
my personal opinion on this cooling thing:
with the bigger V6 coolant/oil exchanger you do get more heat transfered to the coolant, but you also need to upgrade the cooling system to cope with the extra heat. dual fan setup, bigger rad, or even an auxiliary (smaller) rad would help to remove that extra heat. OR... you could go with an air/oil cooler in a 'strategic' location :wink:
and yes, IDI's create considerably more heat than TDI's. mostly due to the pre-combustion chambers. more fuel is turned into mechanical energy than wasted heat energy
When talking Vanagons, the radiator is already large enough, no need to upgrade there. What is often a problem is folks doing a conversion and using an old plugged-up radiator. I almost always replace the rad in every conversion.
IDI's create maybe a little bit more heat, stock for stock, but there are so many variables once you start modding things.
well vw engineers did put 3 glow plugs into the coolant stream of TDI's (but not automatic IIRC) to assist in the warmup. bone stock, the heat from an IDI might be just a bit more, but when you bring the power up to that of a TDI, there is more of a temperature differential.
i have zero knowledge of vanagon's and the size of their rads, but just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in there i must agree though, that nobody inspects/cleans their cooling system on a regular basis, and that is one of the single most reasons for overheats, and head gasket failures.
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#25 by Otis2 on 22 Aug, 2008 02:33
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Quote from: "jackbombay"Quote from: "westyman"Quote from: "jackbombay"
FWIW, not my personal experience, but a friend has a 1.9 TD in his westy and was having hot oil issues. He swapped in the super monster oil to coolant "oil cooler", the one thats way bigger than the V6 oil cooler, his oil temps remained mostly unchanged. Hes looking at oil to air coolers now.
I've seen more Vanagon conversion plumbed wrong than right.
"Wrong" being done as stock? And "right" be plumbed different than stock? Or is the stock plumbing correct? I'm not sure how his is set-up...
Jack's talking about my rig. AAZ Westy, Giles injection pump, water-cooled intercooler, and a succession of different turbos & different oil cooler techniques.
I'll give you some benchmark numbers. Note that they are taken under a pretty hard load, 70 - 75 mph with a 1000 lb boat trailer. Usually on relatively level ground near sea level.
Here's a photo of the oil/water coolers that I will talk about, hosted in the thread at TDi club: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=742791
My old cooler is the one on the far left, stock on the AAZ, probably stock on the 1.6TD and the wasserboxer petrol Vangon engine, too.
My new cooler is the giant on the far right of that photo. I took the part number from that thread.
Plumbing it was pretty idiot proof, just required a couple of odd shaped heater hose pieces to accomodate the different locations for the coolant flanges. Didn't change anything from the stock flow circuit of the original oil/water cooler. I had a machine shop cut me a longer spike from pipe stock and cut threads on it to mount the new cooler & oil filter together.
First Effort Results[/u]
I installed this big oil/water cooler at a time when I was running the ridiculous small K03 turbo. Oil temps would be at 230 F cruising at 70 mph, and easily hit 250 F when goosing it on a fairly limited incline.
I was not especially impressed with the new cooler's effect on oil temperature. Relatively little change, but I blew up the K03 too soon after changing coolers to give you benchmark numbers.
By itself, I expect this mod would probably be similar in effect to Andrew's idea of stacking two stock oil/water coolers. Disappointing results.
Second Effort Results[/u]
Next big mod was to go with a T3 turbo from a mercedes, 0.48 A/R. A giant turbo relative to the K03.
Two radical effects from this change - (1) oil temps were WAY down, such that I could not hit over 230 no matter how abusively I drove; and (2) the thing was awful at spooling, taking forever and never exceeding 10 psi. So annoying that I really had to get a smaller turbo despite the reprieve from hot oil temps that this monster gave me.
Third Effort Results[/u]
So, on to turbo number 3 in 2.5 years, this time a T3 from a 1.6TD engine, A/R 0.36 I think. Now I had something that spooled fairly fast and gave me about 17 - 18 psi boost. However, I was back up to 250 F with the oil, and not happy. Oil temps back up to about where I was at with the K03 turbo. NB Karl - EGT was cooler than with the K03, but oil temps were the same. This is the chronic story for people with IDI engines in Vanagons - oil temp will get dangerous LONG before EGT or water temps. I would easily hit 250 F on oil temps with only a 900 - 1000 F EGT. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to this effect from many people. It's typical IDI - Vangon behaviour. There is even evidence to this effect from various independent posts in your Diesel Vanagon Yahoo list pissing match thread.
Fourth Effort Results[/u]
Next mod was to delete the oil/water cooler, buy a sandwich plate and tube/fin air-oil cooler to mount in its place. These things should really be front mounted by the radiator, but that's not realistic on a rear-engined Vanagon. I mounted this thing up over top of the transmission on the Van, in a hollow "box" that houses the fuel tank on 4wd Vanagon Syncros. For you Golf/Jetta guys, look at the photo here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2708095 Pretty lame place for airflow, even with the electric fan. That area of the Vanagon is basically a heat sink, a box up there over the transmission, collecting all the heat from the trans and the tube & fin cooler, with no exhaust or fresh air exchange.
So, off to the highway I go like this, and I hit 265 F on easy inclines (70 mph with 1000 lb trailer remember). Holy crap, that didn't work at all! So for all you guys who say the oil/water coolers do nothing but warm the oil... well, there's proof positive they do *something* to cool the oil.
Fifth Effort Results[/u]
Now I'm up to the final iteration - put the giant PD Passat oil/water cooler back in, but kept the sandwich plate and the tube & fin cooler. Ran around for an experiment this way, with both types of cooler mounted in parallel, but I was really choked to see that I was no better off than the First Effort Results. It was much better than the disasterous Fourth Effort, though.
Then, my eureka moment, I grabbed a section of 4" dryer ducting (coil spring tinfoil stuff), and jammed it into an S shape under the rear trailing arm of the suspension, zipped tying it so it gave me proper ram-air effect on the tube & fin cooler. It hangs lower than any point under the van and does a great job directing fresh ambient air to the tube & fin cooler.
Off I go for a test drive, really romp on it, and I can't get over 225 F oil temps. Eureka. Now for the acid test.
Took the 1000 lb trailer and fully loaded van up a notorious highway system in British Columbia, from Vancouver to Lake Okanagan, in 93 F ambient air temps. Dig the topograpy profile:
That treasure is followed by this one:
I saw over a dozen vehicles dead by the side of the highway that day. 93 F is ugly high heat for that kind of climb, unless your car is in excellent running condition.
I drove a little slower than usual, about 62 - 65 mph.
Oil temps stayed rock steady at 225 F until the steepest sections, at which point they climbed slowly to about 240 F. I backed off at that point, got down into 3rd gear and held 45 - 50 mph. Rocked past the dead vehicles and semis in the crawl lane. Had to get into 2nd gear for the last mile or so before Coquihalla Summit (just North of the avalanche tunnel, if you know this highway), but still could hold 30 mph and under 240 F oil temps.
On the way back home, ambient air was only 83 F, and again I had no trouble holding 225 F for most of the trip. Although the long climb back from Lake Okanagan to Pennask Summit had me in 3rd gear at 50 mph and 240 F for almost all of it. Acceptable results, I thought. If I could have ditched the trailer, I bet I could have kept the oil temps down enough to hold 60 + mph in 4th gear.
So there's my dissertation on the subject. I'm very pleased with the oil/water and tube & fin coolers both working in parallel, as long as the tube & fin cooler has enough fresh air flow. The dryer ducting is ghetto as hell to look at, but really effective. Just have to make sure it doesn't chafe the brake line on that trailing arm.
Once more for Karl - oil temps rocket up disproportionately to EGT or water temps in IDI-powered Vanagons. It's a fact. I never really even had to watch my EGT gauge before, because I had to ***-foot around the oil temps so much that I never even got into sustained boost of the sort that could bring high EGTs. -
#26 by VW_Commuter on 22 Aug, 2008 05:09
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Otis, you might think about some of the oil cooler/fan combos that the offroad racers are running. They are extremely thin with a large size fan and you could also put in an oil thermostat (oilstat?) so you don't over cool the oil during winter time. Those Mesa coolers with fans can get rid of a lot of heat from the oil.
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#27 by westyman on 22 Aug, 2008 06:06
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This will be my last post on this subject.
Otis: I respect that your results are as you state above. However, I resent your comments regarding a 'pissing match'. You must also accept MY results, as they differ greatly.
From the AAZ days in my Syncro Westy:
My setup consisted of a new AAZ longblock, Raceware studs clamping down the head, compression lowered to 20.5:1, 1.6TD exhaust manifold, Garrett GT1548 turbo set at 22 psi. Saab 900 intercooler w/downdraft fan. 2.5" free-flow exhaust. SA HD airbox supplying the air. Stock AAZ oil cooler. All factory TD-T3 coolant system routing, auxiliary coolant pump inline at the oil cooler, switched on at 120 C. Timing at 1.10mm, stock 1.6TD pump, stock 1.6TD injectors set to 165 bar.
EGT: in normal driving, post turbine, 900 F. Long hard pulls, 1200 F.
Coolant temps: 92 C - 95C (my gauges were C, exc for EGT)
Oil temps: 105-110 C, peaks of 120 on long grades, NEVER did oil temps exceed 125 C.
The only time oil (and coolant) temps exceeded these numbers was when the head cracked, and then both began to rise.
Maybe I lucked into a combination that worked. I'm sorry that your results are not as good. But that doesn't negate the results I achieved. -
#28 by Tintin on 22 Aug, 2008 09:56
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Ha, its more clear now.
There will be always someone in dissension with you, it should be taken with a grain of salt.
When I did work in my garage for a customer, I have anything to do with the opinions of someone in any forum, that is to say saying that does not work properly or blablabla....., I does my work, it goes well and the customer is satisfied, is the same for my cars.
You are very welcome here and I like to have discussed with people like you, but English is my second language and sometimes my answer can be badly interprets, I am a very sympatic person despite everything. -
#29 by jtanguay on 22 Aug, 2008 11:28
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westyman you have two advantages over everyone else, and that is the 2.5 inch free flowing exhaust, and the fan cooled saab intercooler. those in themselves would greatly reduce temps.
i just installed a 2.5 inch muffler & pipe 1/3 the way from the exhaust, and it's made a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference! i can't seem to create my black cloud anymore
i can still make a little bit, but definitely not as much... but thats probably a good thing since the EGT's should be much lower.
IMO, lower EGT's & lower oil temps. because EGT's heat up the turbo, and oil cools/lubricates the turbo. :wink: