Author Topic: Bigger Brakes  (Read 19451 times)

May 04, 2005, 02:01:50 pm

VWRacer

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 649
Bigger Brakes
« on: May 04, 2005, 02:01:50 pm »
Woo hoo! I got us into this mess so I guess I'll go first...  :wink:

Who has put bigger brakes on their A1 and what did you do? Anybody got ideas for el cheapo brake upgrades?

Thanks!


Stan
C-Sports Racer

Reply #1May 04, 2005, 02:04:22 pm

malone

  • Administrator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1156
    • Malone Tuning Ltd.
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2005, 02:04:22 pm »
My friend's A2 Jetta 2.0L 16v GTX has front brakes from a 2.0L A3 Golf or Jetta. They're plenty strong enough, no brake fade that he can recall. I may run a similar setup for my A2.

Just out of curiosity, what is the size of your current brakes?
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #2May 04, 2005, 02:15:07 pm

VWRacer

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 649
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2005, 02:15:07 pm »
Quote from: "malone"
Just out of curiosity, what is the size of your current brakes?
Both my Quantum and my '84 GTI have the stock 225mm (8 7/8") front rotors and rear drums. They work okay, but I would be willing to spend a few dollars to improve them if there are inexpensive bolt-on upgrades available.

I ask because I was looking at a friend's '00 Jetta the other day, and he upgraded his fronts to Audi TT brakes. They bolted right up, look absolutely killer, and stop his car on a dime.
Stan
C-Sports Racer

Reply #3May 04, 2005, 02:17:37 pm

vwmike

  • Authorized Vendor
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1158
Re: Bigger Brakes
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2005, 02:17:37 pm »
Quote from: "VWRacer"
Woo hoo! I got us into this mess so I guess I'll go first...  :wink:

Who has put bigger brakes on their A1 and what did you do? Anybody got ideas for el cheapo brake upgrades?

Thanks!


My gas Rabbit GTI has Scirocco 16v brakes. They're 10.1". I may go up to 11" brakes using the normal adapter plates they sell, and G60 rotors. I would have to use a carrier for a G60 or an audi 5000 Turbo. One of the cooler upgrades is G60 rotors with the adapter plates and Girling 60 (dual piston) calipers off of a 5000 Quattro. Rear disks are also a must (I'd rather switch to disks than do a brake job on drums). There isn't much upgrade beyond the stock 8.9" brakes that came on the Scirocco 16v, A2's, and A3's. It's hard to get rid of the rear bias as it is. With organic pads you can have lock up problems. Switching to a metallic pad or metalmasters on the extreme will cure the lock up as they never get hot enough to grab as hard as the organics do initially.

Reply #4May 04, 2005, 04:45:07 pm

VWRacer

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 649
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2005, 04:45:07 pm »
Very cool, Mike!  8)

Were you able to stick with your stock snowflakes with the bigger rotors?
Stan
C-Sports Racer

Reply #5May 05, 2005, 03:35:34 am

vwmike

  • Authorized Vendor
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1158
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2005, 03:35:34 am »
Quote from: "VWRacer"
Very cool, Mike!  8)

Were you able to stick with your stock snowflakes with the bigger rotors?


I don't have the snowflakes now, but that isn't specifically because of the size of the stock wheels. You need a 14" wheel to fit a 10.1" brake, and a 15" wheel to fit an 11" brake.

Reply #6May 05, 2005, 06:13:37 am

caddy

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 748
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2005, 06:13:37 am »
on my a1 vw i fit g60 brake with special monting braket.

Reply #7May 05, 2005, 11:39:57 am

Dr. Diesel

  • Authorized Vendor
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1341
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2005, 11:39:57 am »
My favoured brake setup: 9.4 vented and slotted, a good street/race pad like hawk, proper cooling airflow to the rotor. I'm currently trying EBC green pads, they seem ok.
Rear can be drum or disc. The real trick to a good braking system is the balance. Ideally, you want the rear brakes to lock up just after the front ones. Normally, this never happens. I've installed two manual brake proportioning valves, one for each rear brake behind the driver seat in the rear passenger footwell. This way, each rear brake can be fine tuned. When you have the rear brakes tuned this way,  (different track conditions require different settings) you will allow the front brakes to make maximum stopping power.
I've never faded my brakes, despite the fact that I'm very hard on them in the autocross races. I see no point in going to a bigger brake.
I repair, maintain and modify VW's and BMW's.
Good work done at affordable rates. Welding and fabricating, too.
Performance Diesel Injection's Super Pump: gotta have one!

Reply #8May 05, 2005, 12:18:32 pm

fspGTD

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1529
    • http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2005, 12:18:32 pm »
Wow, jumping right into big brakes already?  This place all the sudden feels one big step closer to.. vWhoretex?!?  :wink:

Regarding big brakes on A1s - I'm with Dr. D - prefer the lightest brakes that get the job done (which are, the factory ones), coupled with good pads.  The pads are really key here, and proper maintenance of the system.

Bolting on those G60 front brakes and rear disks probably adds in unsprung rotating weight the equivalent static mass of an extra person.  (All the time, everywhere you go...)

If aftermarket pads are available with enough friction to lock 'em at freeway speed if you want, without ever fading, and with good cold bite to boot, which is the case I believe for these cars, there's no reason to bolt on bigger heavier stuff IMO.

PS - here is what I am running for proportioning on my Rabbit Autocrosser - although I'm not sure I'd do this to a street car, I am quite pleased with the manual brake conversion setup for racing application, where weight reduction is important:
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #9May 05, 2005, 05:42:01 pm

lord_verminaard

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1080
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2005, 05:42:01 pm »
Cool setup.  Is that a Willwood?  I'd like a few more details on your setup.

And over on the vertex, they always say that you cant use any other kind of prop valve than oem. VW, which seem to be made of unobtanium.

I'd like to put rear disks on the rocco, just so I never have to do a drum brake job ever again.  (fine call me a wuss)  ;-P

You say that going manual brakes wouldnt be too good for street use?  I think my booster has a vacuum leak somewhere is why I ask... ;)

Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
81 Scirocco 'S -->Soon to be m-TDI
93 Corrado SLC VR6
'86 Golf N/A Diesel  -->Wife's car
1990 Audi CQ
05 New Beetle PD TDI


"I am a man, I can change... if I have to.... I guess....."

-Red Green

Reply #10May 06, 2005, 01:17:29 am

fspGTD

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1529
    • http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2005, 01:17:29 am »
I think going manual brakes would be great for the street.  I'm not sure I'd go as far as the aftermarket adjustable prop valve though.

I've posted details on the manual brake conversion before... let me search and find the thread, and I will post it.

Edit: this is the thread I was thinking of... off the old forum:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=363

Also, here is one thread from here on removing the vacuum pump: http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #11May 06, 2005, 07:42:26 am

lord_verminaard

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1080
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2005, 07:42:26 am »
Cool, that's what I was looking for.  Thanks!

Do you think that the brake pedal feel would be about the same without the prop valve?  Also, I cant remember, does your car have rear drums or discs?  I plan on a rear disc swap eventually, if they will work with manual brakes all the better...

Thanks!

Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
81 Scirocco 'S -->Soon to be m-TDI
93 Corrado SLC VR6
'86 Golf N/A Diesel  -->Wife's car
1990 Audi CQ
05 New Beetle PD TDI


"I am a man, I can change... if I have to.... I guess....."

-Red Green

Reply #12May 06, 2005, 09:10:46 am

VWRacer

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 649
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2005, 09:10:46 am »
Quote from: "fspGTD"
Wow, jumping right into big brakes already?  This place all the sudden feels one big step closer to.. vWhoretex?!?  :wink:

Regarding big brakes on A1s - I'm with Dr. D - prefer the lightest brakes that get the job done (which are, the factory ones), coupled with good pads.  The pads are really key here, and proper maintenance of the system.

Bolting on those G60 front brakes and rear disks probably adds in unsprung rotating weight the equivalent static mass of an extra person.  (All the time, everywhere you go...)

If aftermarket pads are available with enough friction to lock 'em at freeway speed if you want, without ever fading, and with good cold bite to boot, which is the case I believe for these cars, there's no reason to bolt on bigger heavier stuff IMO.

PS - here is what I am running for proportioning on my Rabbit Autocrosser - although I'm not sure I'd do this to a street car, I am quite pleased with the manual brake conversion setup for racing application, where weight reduction is important:

vWhoretex?!? No, not at all, Jake. Remember that my Rabbit GTI is a SCCA/NASA road race car, not a street car. And the speeds one achieves on a 3 mile track like Thunderhill, especially on a several-hour (up to 25 hours!) endurance race make stock brakes problematical. The stock brakes may be optimal for 40-60 mph, one minute long autoX events, but that's not the same conditions I face.

As for my Q-ship, the brakes work adequately for the around town driving I do, but they feel too soft for my taste. If a slightly bigger rotor and caliper can get the feel I prefer at OEM replacement cost, then I may try it. I hope that doesn't put me in 'bling-bling' territory!  :wink:

Nice touch with the proportioning valve! I too was wondering about your rear brake configuration.

Cheers!
Stan
C-Sports Racer

Reply #13May 06, 2005, 10:46:25 pm

moosiah

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 106
brakes
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2005, 10:46:25 pm »
So Stan..... I got a reply on my "wheels for wabbits and frankenbunnys"  post on brake upgrades and wheels ...... I have 200x40 rear backing plates from a Quantum w drums from a jetta 2 ....... I've seen these on audi 4000s too . the front brakes I'm going to use (10.1") came from a 87 scirroco 16v (87-89)  these are a bolt on deal for a A1 bunny  :idea: ,,,,,audi 4000 10.1" calipers can bolt on w a adapter plate....... I live in the bay area , lets go yard hopping some time........ :D I have a rear disc conversion set but I think that unless I build a "GTID " grenadebunny :twisted:   I like the big drum set better ....
'81 Frankenbunny: part rabbit, sirroco, golf ,caddy cabrio ,jedda and ! ford teimpo! w a little more Audi and soon some Peogeot too!!!!

Reply #14May 07, 2005, 08:45:13 am

VWRacer

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 649
Bigger Brakes
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2005, 08:45:13 am »
Very cool, Moosiah! I went back and re-read your thread and am looking forward to doing some 'dumpster diving' with you.  :wink:

One question...do you stick with the rear drums because they hold better (as parking brakes) than discs, because if one retrofits discs one gives up a parking brake, or some other reason?

FWIW, my GTI has 6Jx15H2 "Snowflake" cast aluminum wheels, while the Q has 5.5Jx13H2 cast aluminums. The GTI can take 10.1" discs (thanks Mike!) while the Q can upgrade to the Scrirroco 9.4" rotors without changing the wheels...tho maybe a set of bigger wheels would be worth it if they're as cheap as you found.

Off to the vintage races at Thunderhill this morning. Catch up with you later!
Stan
C-Sports Racer