Open Letter to Prothe

[jimfoo]

It doesn't make it wrong. Everyone can make a decision. They should know that for a much cheaper price, something has to be different be it just labor cost or quality. It is the buyers responsibility to decide if a low price part is worth the risk. Is it a complex, high tolerance item like a turbo or a low tech piston? Much more to go wrong with a poor quality turbo than a piston if the price difference s due to quality.
Example, there is a guy selling cheap plasma cutters. He imports them, tests them and a decent percentage are bad, but he can sell the others which work and make money. The people who buy them at 50-70% less than other brands are happy with them. If they weren't available at that price, people wouldn't be able to afford them.
As far as the turbo example on TDI Club, maybe they have less power due to poorer quality, maybe the installer didn't adjust the wastegate, maybe they aren't the same as the turbo they are supposed to replace. It's hard to tell from the posts just how knowledgeable the people who bought them are. But yes, that's the price you pay for a non-OEM part, take it or leave it. It seems like all you are trying to do is drum up bad things, and maybe the turbos might be one, but I have quite a few parts from him, and have had no problems with what I bought. There is the chance they won't last as long and I may have to replace them sooner, but that's a chance I took. As far as his pistons, the ones I got were Arco brand, out of Taiwan, like 90% of everything imported to the US. They seemed well made.
Times are getting tighter with fuel prices, so people shouldn't waste their money. If they have the money to buy Nüral pistons or a     Kobenschmidt head, then they should. But what if they don't have the money? Just let the car sit and rot? I don't know why this discussion continues as it's about decision and opinion, two things which are very hard to change. At work, my boss wnated everyone to buy Fluke meters as they are well known. Are they the best, I don't think so. I think it's just a name any more. I bought a different cheaper brand, and you know what, it was more accurate than one other guys Fluke for half the price with twice the features. Times change, quality changes. Guess I'll shut up now as I seem to be rambling. Time for coffee.

[RabbitGTDguy]

I can respect that and I'm not trying to "drum" any bad stuff up. However, I will site examples so that there is the knowledge out there for those that are looking for parts in the future, etc.

In question is not Prothe's parts...but his lack of response and inquiry when buying his parts and his comparing them to others without any sort of comparison. Turbos aren't even the half of the example...nozzles, junk seals, etc. round out more of the list. Also, when posting that I was interested in his pistons (yet he never returned my PM re:) I had a couple guys send me info they had on the pistons that were bought from him...that the wrist pins didn't fit the rods snuggly....one example citing failure when taken above 18psi, etc.

Yet, somehow...Prothe still continues to skate the true issues here with him and what Myke W was originally addressing...interesting. Think I mentioned that before again.

Jim, if thats how you prefer to build your motors, etc. Thats fine...its respected. However, I have a difference of opinion and no matter how long this thread goes on that fact will remain....like you said, matters of choice and opinion.  Its better that the information be out there regarding it then buying items on half-baked notions and I think with this day and age that I'd rather stretch my dollar further with quality (even if it does mean "letting the car sit longer", vs. buying the cheaper chicken...that your right...in the end, you'll probably end up replace in the not too distant future.

There are a great number of forum members here, and your one of them that I respect alot and have made some good contributions to things. Some of you back Prothe...great. However, it is nothing personal but our opinions will continue to differ on this and newbies especially have the right to be warned about this type of vendor. Especially when you pose important questions with no response and really offer up quality standards based on nothing whatsoever.
But again....this will go round and round. So...

Again, I don't have a ton of money. The idea was to have the current motor built by now but in having to buy pistons, I am having to push my timeline 3-4 months now...I'm fine with having to do that in the name of knowing what is going into my motor and having a bit more confidence in what I spent my limited cash on.



Again...its to each....his own.

Joe

[AudiVWguy]

OK,
I guess its time to tell my fuel pump story. I originally Bought a fuel pump from him on ebay. It was suppose to be a turbo pump but it wasn't. Months later I found this out. To his credit, I was able to work out a deal to trade that pump, and two NA pumps, and a high altitude pump (looks like a turbo pump, but doesn't work the same) that leaks out the bottom somewhere. All this for a rebuilt 1.6 turbo diesel pump. He says ok so I eat the shipping on sending them to him. Weeks later I get a pump in the mail--- It's my high altitude pump back again.( His email says it's a turbo pump and didn't have any to rebuild at the time. But I swear there's one on ebay). I put it on and it won't start. I try every priming trick I know, It won't start! I send it back and a few weeks later it shows up again. Same pump, I didn't want this one back I wanted a 1.6 TD pump with the cold start rpm increase. Which is what we agreed to the first time around. So I put this pump on (which I've gotten quite good at by now) The good news first-- it starts right up. Now the bad news-- I move the throttle, nothing happens! NOTHING! no rpm increase at all. So I have to take the top of the pump off and try to reset the arm to the correct position. Those of you who have done the governor mod know its helpful to know your starting points......
Anyway, I get it running and find out the it still leaks! How do you rebuild a pump and not check it for leaks? Let alone how do you test the pump and not catch the throttle lever isn't right? When I received the pump it had a tag on it that says OK to ship. There is writing on the other side that says: Idle set to 10"/ 200 RPH (its probably M but it looks like an H) Full throttle set to 25"/ 200 RPH. What do these numbers mean? More importantly, how do you put an "OK to ship" tag on it if it doesn't work and still leaks?
After this experience I really can't see how he can earn back my trust.

[rallydiesel]

That's the thing. People have to know the difference. I would buy certain parts that serve a simple purpose. I would never buy a pump from him and run it as is. Or really anything else he "rebuilt/designed/modified". However, I would buy something like a waterpump, oil cooler or turbo oil line.

[RabbitGTDguy]

rallydiesel,

There are "simple parts" that he offers up that have failed quite nearly "out of the box". Ask Myke (if he'll share) re: his IP pump seals that he bought from him. Look at the head gaskets that Tin-Tin was mentioning. Would you trust those items? The above story about the IP pump just sounds like someone who is in the business of taking pumps apart, resealing and not really paying attention to "how" things come apart, need to be marked and come back together. Made a good quick buck though. I've said before in other threads that the pumps aren't rocket science, and don't take a ton of work to reseal, etc. But damn, if I'm going to spend the time in tearing one down I'm going to:
1.  Make sure my area is clean
2.  Make sure I note the position of the throttle shaft and all other parts for reassembly
3. Make sure I use good...OEM Bosch seals or similar (there is one other manufacturer that is "ok" in my book. However, there are alot of others off loading the old non-ULSD seals at the moment...so you have to be careful
4. Make sure I know how the entire pump operates before I sell it to someone....err...
A DIY'er can do a pump and do a nice job on it. Its the time invested and the quality of parts used that will make the difference in the end. However, there are things to check with the pump to make sure its still good to use, etc. (which most the time they are).

I can agree with buying certain parts as well. A waterpump for instance...hopefully he hasn't laid his hands on it in any other way than to box it and ship it out...but, like most other vendors post...I'd like to know what waterpump it is. For instance....is it a Bocar? Ok...  Fair to post that and have such information available. Other vendors do so as well and if he isn't afraid of the quality of his product, then why not make that information available?

Joe

[jimfoo]

So what is the story with the seals? I bought his seal kit and put some of them in, but so far I haven't had problems, but then again they haven't been in for that long. Hopefully the seals or supplier are different now as I've taken my pump off more than enough lately to fix the clip on the cold start timing advance shaft. The parts that I've had no problems with, so far, are pump seals, TDI injectors, TDI head , TDI pistons, 10mm pump head, TDI camplate and springs. The head itself was too tight to turn the camshaft when cap #5 was tightened, but the machine shop said that is common with a head like that on the thrust bearing, so I don't know that's a fault. Better than being too loose I guess. The casting was rougher in the runners than my stock IDI head, but that was to be expected for the price. Besides timing tools, that's everything I have bought from him other than a turbo gasket. I have had no problems with anything so far. One thing on the seal kit was that it had brass washers for the check valves instead of copper, which made me hesitant to use them. Maybe they would work just fine, but I heated up the old copper ones to soften the and re-used them instead.

[jtanguay]

So what is the story with the seals? I bought his seal kit and put some of them in, but so far I haven't had problems, but then again they haven't been in for that long. Hopefully the seals or supplier are different now as I've taken my pump off more than enough lately to fix the clip on the cold start timing advance shaft. The parts that I've had no problems with, so far, are pump seals, TDI injectors, TDI head , TDI pistons, 10mm pump head, TDI camplate and springs. The head itself was too tight to turn the camshaft when cap #5 was tightened, but the machine shop said that is common with a head like that on the thrust bearing, so I don't know that's a fault. Better than being too loose I guess. The casting was rougher in the runners than my stock IDI head, but that was to be expected for the price. Besides timing tools, that's everything I have bought from him other than a turbo gasket. I have had no problems with anything so far. One thing on the seal kit was that it had brass washers for the check valves instead of copper, which made me hesitant to use them. Maybe they would work just fine, but I heated up the old copper ones to soften the and re-used them instead.

i can tell you that the camshaft on my TDI engine is pretty stiff as well, and it is what came with my longblock.  (reputable shop rebuilt it for me with new lifters, valve guides, seals, gave it an extremely smooth finish   and with parts etc it cost me around $250.  it was worth that price alone to have the built up carbon+oil mixture from the egr removed.  i had to pay like $20 per lifter though... whereas from prothe i could have saved some moolah.  these expensive lifters better prove to be of good quality! or i'm demanding my money back!  :roll:   :lol:

[RabbitGTDguy]

Jim,

I can tell you that I have read stores regarding the following items:

1.  Pump seals ( I hope myke chimes in here), swelling, distortion and not fitting correctly. Also, sets that were advertised as ULSD compliant but were not actually

2. Camplates (actually breaking after 20k)

3. Hydraulic heads (seizing) and similar chinese heads that seem to have fairly soft plungers that actually have snapped

4. Nozzles (that traditional bosio nozzle vs. Smog, Prothe, cheap nozzle debate....though, just smoke issues and not as much power...but nothing really failure wise)
see...i'm being objective...

5. Pistons...weight discrepancies but more issue with not being able to take sustained boost pressure above stock limits.... (I could post what I have, but they were personal threads directly sent to me...I could ask the senders, but they may not want to gripe...but I personally appreciated the advice before I bought anything)

6. Heard similar about the blank head castings...but thats not a huge issue. I'd port match on any motor I was working on...haven't heard anything otherwise...

7. Timing tools....eh...I lent out a great set of OEM timing tools that I had at one point...and never got them back...in a pinch, I bought the ones that Prothe had. I still have them. Cam lock works fine...don't use the sprocket pin, but the dial indicator and gauge holder is so impossible to get a good reading on that it makes it frustrating. A new, higher quality metric indicator would do wonders, but its still hard to get the holder to "hold" the indicator in place a lot of the time. I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for. A Zmak kit will be in the future.

Thats some of what I know. In the interests of not "flaming" as I have been accused of, etc. I won't post further links to these threads (that detail these problems) or emails/PM's that I received (based on my inquiry about his pistons) unless I get permission from the original poster and only for the reason that these people already had frustrating experience not only with product...but with customer service from Prothe as well and don't really want to be drug into it further. However, if it is so desired, I will gladly link to further threads and ask those people if they wouldn't mind sharing their story.

Again, Myke...I hope you share yours.

Joe

[dogday]

... I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for...

Ok I've been following this thread - to clarify I have not bought parts from ANYONE mentioned above.

Yet.

I have no axe to grind & I respect all on this board who have earned my respect through their knowledge & their willingness to share it freely.

It boils down to Caveat Emptor... If something is significantly cheaper than than an equivalent part elsewhere, there is generally a good reason for that. You pays your money & you takes your choice.

OEM parts are (generally but not always) good quality but high price.

Non OEM parts are (generally) lower quality but lower price.

Its a trade off - If Prothe was claiming his parts were OEM then I could understand the ***ing going on here. From what evidence I have seen he does not claim this. Which is why some of this is coming across as sour grapes.

While there are some valid points being raised re: communication issues - again if you don't like the service don't buy. Personally I check online vendors out beofre I use them - a physical store I can go and yell at someone - online there are risks involved.

Again - we're all grown ups here (allegedly)

Its a free market folks - its called capitalism....

Just my 2 pence...

[dons flame proof suit]

DD

[RabbitGTDguy]

... I learned my lesson though... i got what i paid for...

Ok I've been following this thread - to clarify I have not bought parts from ANYONE mentioned above.

Yet.

I have no axe to grind & I respect all on this board who have earned my respect through their knowledge & their willingness to share it freely.

It boils down to Caveat Emptor... If something is significantly cheaper than than an equivalent part elsewhere, there is generally a good reason for that. You pays your money & you takes your choice.

OEM parts are (generally but not always) good quality but high price.

Non OEM parts are (generally) lower quality but lower price.

Its a trade off - If Prothe was claiming his parts were OEM then I could understand the ***ing going on here. From what evidence I have seen he does not claim this. Which is why some of this is coming across as sour grapes.

While there are some valid points being raised re: communication issues - again if you don't like the service don't buy. Personally I check online vendors out beofre I use them - a physical store I can go and yell at someone - online there are risks involved.

Again - we're all grown ups here (allegedly)

Its a free market folks - its called capitalism....

Just my 2 pence...

[dons flame proof suit]

DD

I think I agree with everything that was said here. However, better for members here to know...be aware, etc.
Prothe does make those claims on several different fronts and is very "suspicious" in others. Please read on, in detail and in his site. Also, consider various feedback he has in other areas and his original claims (re: his pistons...back when myke was working hard on getting the Nurals) and you'll see what is meant.  His claims.. based on....well....nothing whatsoever or so vague you'd have your head spinning. I'm glad my dissappointed and feeling the need for "good" customer service before the sale set me off from it right away. Gladly, there is a claim in hand soon that someone may be willing to offer up their piston for example (of Prothe's) that shows "what kind of quality" we are dealing with here. It'll be interesting to see.

Very nice.

Joe

[Tintin]

About the pump seal, I already bought these seals for my personnal use, cots 3$  at the chinesse supplier, and I can tell at all that is only a 0.10$ rubber o-ring, really not recommended for diesel pump, + an oem bosch seals kit cost around 20-25$, more seals is include in the bosch kit  ...etc....

Chinese came plate are porous and melt rapidly, I checked with binocular microscope and I'm affraid to see the bad quality of the metal.

A water pump driven by the timing belt......  oufff!!  no comment.

etc...  etc..   etc.....

[RabbitGTDguy]

This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...

http://www.tdi-parts.com/

http://www.turbosandparts.com/

http://www.volkswaparts.com/

http://www.dieselvw.com/

http://www.wagenparts.com/

http://www.wolfsburgparts.com/

http://www.passat-parts.com/

http://www.emiata.com/

Damn... and I won't say what I felt like saying...
 Fell upon that by total surprise tonight trying to find something else.

Joe

[CoolAirVw]

This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...

Looks like a smart businessman to me.  

I hate crappy parts just as much as the next guy, I also despise that everything I buy seems to have "made in China" (or indonesia, or india or taiwan ect) on it.  But unfortunatly no one is going to be able to change it.  

If you cant beat 'em join em!

I suggest that if we want to keep our cars going were going to need parts.  Hey Prothe can you get some Precombustion chambers for Turbo diesel 1.6's made up?  (fyi I buy almost all OEM)

I would suggest that poor quality parts (or service) would be shared in feedback and buyers can make a decision based on feedback.

I would also like to add that Prothe's responses have been polite and nice everytime I have read them.  I would probably not respond as well, so Kudo's to Prothe.

[zukgod1]

This is interesting...Prothe....how many domains do you own...

Looks like a smart businessman to me.  


I would also like to add that Prothe's responses have been polite and nice everytime I have read them.  I would probably not respond as well, so Kudo's to Prothe.

X2

[burn_your_money]

That's enough circles.

If anyone has any complaints or compliments for Prothe, please use the Feedback section. Personal experiences only.