Author Topic: Intercooler question  (Read 3915 times)

April 21, 2008, 02:41:56 pm

madisle

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Intercooler question
« on: April 21, 2008, 02:41:56 pm »
Is this intercooler from Nissan 200sx s13 good for AAZ or do I need a bigger one?
http://www.album.ee/node/14650388/50100525#browse



Reply #1April 21, 2008, 06:14:17 pm

zukgod1

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Intercooler question
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2008, 06:14:17 pm »
I dont see any dims?

looks like it would be better than nothing.

That one needs a REALLY good cleaning.
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #2April 22, 2008, 04:28:10 pm

KTZed

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Intercooler question
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 04:28:10 pm »
I am using a very similar one from a JDM S13 Silvia SR20DET and it works great for me. Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.

'85 2d Golf + 1.6TD - Winter daily driver on the build
'73 Datsun 240Z - Summer daily driver/autox racer

Reply #3April 22, 2008, 05:05:39 pm

zukgod1

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Intercooler question
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 05:05:39 pm »
Quote from: "KTZed"
Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.




HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That thing is WAY to small to be doing anything around 200hp..

It would get heat soaked in a matter of minutes anywhere close to that.

Yes it will work and yes it's better than nothing but come on.
That thing was designed for a mild driver accelerating in traffic.

Built to cool 200hp.. hahahahahahaha!!!!!

No don't get me wrong KTZed I'm not bashing you directly but maybe where you got your info should be examined a little closer..??
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #4April 22, 2008, 05:35:23 pm

flash319

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Intercooler question
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 05:35:23 pm »
Not to hijack to bad  :roll:  but when to you notice an intercooler?  Like what RPM or do they give a noticable power increase across the RPM range?  I am thinking of getting one but I hate having all the piping and crap for a few ponies.

Reply #5April 22, 2008, 06:12:59 pm

zukgod1

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Intercooler question
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 06:12:59 pm »
Mine was more noticeable in the mid to upper RPM's.
Figure at lower RPM your not making 15+psi so the air isn't as hot as when it's compressed more which is what the IC is for.
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #6April 23, 2008, 02:33:52 am

KTZed

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Intercooler question
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2008, 02:33:52 am »
Quote from: "zukgod1"
Quote from: "KTZed"
Keep in mind that that IC was built to cool ~200hp worth of airflow....a lot more than most ppl will be flowing through a vw diesel.




HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That thing is WAY to small to be doing anything around 200hp..

It would get heat soaked in a matter of minutes anywhere close to that.



Ok...maybe you'd like to take that argument up with Nissan's engineers?  :roll:
An S13 SR20DET makes 200hp stock. Even if the IC is subpar for that stock application, my engine makes...maybe 100hp...I think its up to the task. FWIW installing the IC with NO other changes dropped the EGT's 200degF.

PS. The entire intercooler install cost me $75  :lol:
'85 2d Golf + 1.6TD - Winter daily driver on the build
'73 Datsun 240Z - Summer daily driver/autox racer

Reply #7April 23, 2008, 08:19:16 am

jtanguay

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Intercooler question
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 08:19:16 am »
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink: and you won't really feel an intercooler unless your car was previously smoking.  if it wasn't smoking before, you can add some more fuel for that extra 5-10 hp (or more depending on how crazy your setup is)


This is how we deal with porn spammers! You've been warned.

Reply #8April 23, 2008, 09:47:29 am

saurkraut

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Intercooler question
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 09:47:29 am »
Quote from: "jtanguay"
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink:


This doesn't appear to be true.  Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus.  Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better.  CFM is probably best.

Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?
'79 1.6TD RABBIT
'84 1.5TD RABBIT
'83 Diesel Westy
'86 Audi 5000 Turbo Quatro Wagon
92 Audi 100
'93 Eurovan
'82 Porsche 930

Reply #9April 23, 2008, 10:56:08 am

jtanguay

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Intercooler question
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 10:56:08 am »
Quote from: "saurkraut"
Quote from: "jtanguay"
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink:


This doesn't appear to be true.  Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus.  Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better.  CFM is probably best.

Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?


well if i read that thread correctly, [email protected] is a bad thing?  who actually runs their turbo at 35 psi daily? and would you not expect that kind of pressure drop relative to the amount of heat that you remove? :lol: looking at: [email protected] - it seems to be a good intercooler to me.  granted if the intercooler manged to drop [email protected] then yes, it would be near useless, but if the temperature drop is high, it will reduce egt's with less black smoke.  so i'll stand by my statement that it is still better than not having an intercooler  :wink:

i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup.  running at those pressures anything is possible.  plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much.  after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.


This is how we deal with porn spammers! You've been warned.

Reply #10April 23, 2008, 12:47:11 pm

madisle

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Intercooler question
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2008, 12:47:11 pm »
If I'm hoping to get 100-110 HP from AAZ then this s13 intercooler would be up to it?

Reply #11April 23, 2008, 01:12:13 pm

KTZed

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Intercooler question
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2008, 01:12:13 pm »
Quote from: "saurkraut"
Quote from: "jtanguay"
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink:


This doesn't appear to be true.  Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus.  Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better.  CFM is probably best.

Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?


Couple things to remember. HP is just a function of torque and rpm.

Torque is made by applying a force (cyl pressure on the piston*piston area) to a lever (half the stroke of the crank, depending on rod angle etc.). The dimensions of the engine are fixed obviously so that just leaves cyl pressure. This can be changed by cramming in more air ("boost" if you will) and the required amount of fuel.

RPM's are RPM's. The faster you spin the engine the more air you put in. Simple.

So whats my point? HP Is directly tied to airflow. Mass airflow to be exact, not CFM.

Ok so back on track...
An intercooler should be measured in 2 ways: Pressure drop and heat rejection.
Pressure drop is a function of CFM (rpm & displacement) and heat rejection is a function of Mass airflow (rpm, displacement density ie "boost", and temperature difference).

Lets do a little maths on my scenario. Assume 100%ve.

1.6TD at 20psi at 5000rpm
1.6L = 97in^3 = 0.056ft^3
0.056/2 = 0.028 (intake stroke comes once every 2 revs)
0.028*5000rpm = 140CFM

Air density = ~0.075lb/ft^3 at 21degC
0.075*140 = 10.5lb/min
Pressure ratio at 20psi = (20+14.7)/14.7 = 2.36
10.5*2.36 = 24.78Lb/min

SR20DET at 7psi at 6500rpm
2L = 121in^3 = 0.070ft^3
0.07/2 = 0.035
0.035*6500 = 227.5CFM

0.075*227.5 = 17.06lb/min
PR @ 7psi = (7+14.7)/14.7 = 1.476
17.06*1.476 = 25.18lb/min

As you can see, the 1.6TD moves far less air (CFM) than the SR20 but they move a similar mass of air given the difference in PR (This also demonstrates how both motors should make similar torque figures dispite the difference in HP). The temp of the air will be much higher with the 1.6TD due to the PR so I will concede that it is likely that I am putting more heat into my IC than in the stock application, but the pressure drop should be less. That being said, this IC is better than a lot of small IC's from a heat rejection standpoint as it has large cast aluminum endtanks and inlet/outlet to transfer heat to....better than plastic no doubt.

Phew! [/rant]
'85 2d Golf + 1.6TD - Winter daily driver on the build
'73 Datsun 240Z - Summer daily driver/autox racer

Reply #12April 23, 2008, 01:17:36 pm

saurkraut

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Intercooler question
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2008, 01:17:36 pm »
Quote from: "jtanguay"
Quote from: "saurkraut"
Quote from: "jtanguay"
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink:


This doesn't appear to be true.  Heres one that lowered performance because its too small:

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12278&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Specifying an intercooler by HP is bogus.  Pressure drop vrs boost is probably better.  CFM is probably best.

Anyone know what CFM our various turbo put out?


well if i read that thread correctly, [email protected] is a bad thing?  who actually runs their turbo at 35 psi daily? and would you not expect that kind of pressure drop relative to the amount of heat that you remove? :lol: looking at: [email protected] - it seems to be a good intercooler to me.  granted if the intercooler manged to drop [email protected] then yes, it would be near useless, but if the temperature drop is high, it will reduce egt's with less black smoke.  so i'll stand by my statement that it is still better than not having an intercooler  :wink:

i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup.  running at those pressures anything is possible.  plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much.  after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.


RE this intercooler:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250219901631&rd=1

Yes, it is a OK intercooer for 15 PSI.

But its a bad intercooler for 25 PSI.  His EGT went up, smoke went up, and I suspect his power went down.  At 25 PSI this intercooler is worse than no intercooler. :wink:

I don't know if you can safely get 100 HP out of a 1.6td at 15 PSI.
'79 1.6TD RABBIT
'84 1.5TD RABBIT
'83 Diesel Westy
'86 Audi 5000 Turbo Quatro Wagon
92 Audi 100
'93 Eurovan
'82 Porsche 930

Reply #13April 23, 2008, 03:31:10 pm

zukgod1

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Intercooler question
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2008, 03:31:10 pm »
Quote from: saurkraut
Quote from: "jtanguay"
Quote from: "saurkraut"
Quote from: "jtanguay"
as long as the intercooler gets good airflow, even a small one is better than nothing  :wink:
i think zukgod's problem might have been with a boost leak with the intercooler plumbing, or possibly with the way it was setup.  running at those pressures anything is possible.  plus the k24 is only efficient to around 20-22 psi, and the T3 possibly a little more, but not much.  after that the exhaust backpressure exceeds the intake pressure.


RE this intercooler:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250219901631&rd=1

Yes, it is a OK intercooler for 15 PSI.

But its a bad intercooler for 25 PSI.  His EGT went up, smoke went up, and I suspect his power went down.  At 25 PSI this intercooler is worse than no intercooler. :wink:

I don't know if you can safely get 100 HP out of a 1.6td at 15 PSI.



No leaks in my system at all, double checked everything. I do think I have to many 90 deg bends though and I will be taking as many of those out as I can here shortly. I'll come out of the turbo with a 45 and have it angled toward the pass headlight rather than a 90 out of the turbo then snaked around everything to get where it needs to go.

saurkraut,

you are correct, my power was different after the IC install but only at the mid range area (more), after that it kinda dropped off. Before the IC if I really pushed it in third I could touch 40psi thus the IC quest. I know the K24 is way past it's range there so my attempt was to help drop the intake temps with the IC. Right now my clutch slips so damn bad I cant even get on the freeway fast so till that's taken care of I cant do any further testing.

I found a much larger IC last night. 31" x 12" x 3" with 3" inlet/outlets.
I figure it flows more than double the current one. I'll be getting that installed next week sometime and if all goes as planned I'll get a new clutch this weekend. At that time I'll be able to report back the improvement if any.

No I don't run it @ 35+ psi all day but when I do I want and expect it to function as intended so I'll keep changing stuff till I get it where it needs to be, with all your guidance that is  :wink:
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy

Reply #14April 23, 2008, 04:00:11 pm

zukgod1

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Intercooler question
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2008, 04:00:11 pm »
Quote from: "KTZed"

As you can see, the 1.6TD moves far less air (CFM) than the SR20 but they move a similar mass of air given the difference in PR (This also demonstrates how both motors should make similar torque figures dispite the difference in HP). The temp of the air will be much higher with the 1.6TD due to the PR so I will concede that it is likely that I am putting more heat into my IC than in the stock application, but the pressure drop should be less. That being said, this IC is better than a lot of small IC's from a heat rejection standpoint as it has large cast aluminum endtanks and inlet/outlet to transfer heat to....better than plastic no doubt.

Phew! [/rant]


Before I start I want to make sure you know I'm not bashing you or your intelligence here. One of the reasons I like this board is we can all talk about things without ruffeling feathers. And keep in mind none of my thoughts are connected  :lol:

That's good info there  I will still stand by my earlier comment. That gas engine you are commenting on does not create the amount of heat our 1.6 TD's (Turbos) do and you know as to your comment.. Air flow pr engine aside the turbo the Nissan used was more efficient at the same PSI? if that's the case then ya for the Nissan it's a good IC for the but not for the VW TD, yes it's better than nothing and I believe I mentioned it was better than nothing in my earlier post.
My comments are based on several situations personally experianced.
The size of the IC is directly related to psi performance. The smaller they are the less they will perform as RPM/psi goes up, you loose CFM and heat exchange capabilities, at some point you will reach heat soak and at that point all your doing is restricting your airflow and stuffing in warm air.

Thus your comment on the HP is directly tied to airflow, Mass to be exact. you are correct and this is my point as the air is cooled in the IC the pressure is greater on the cold side than the hot side thus restriction.. Colder air has more density than warm air..

So after reading all that crap I think we agree here. Anything is better than nothing. Currently I have that 28x5.5x2.5 with 2" inlet/outlets and I'mm changing to a 31x12x3 with 3" inlet/outlets just for the capisity.
I have way to much fuel fo the turbo already so I need to do what I can to cool the air :)
dan

99 Golf TDI (now CNG powered) , 82 TD Caddy