Author Topic: Total Newbie, injection pump questions  (Read 5920 times)

January 14, 2008, 08:16:35 pm

The Mad Hatter

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Total Newbie, injection pump questions
« on: January 14, 2008, 08:16:35 pm »
Hello to all!  I've always liked the diesel VW's, my father has one, and i just recently purchased an 85 Golf with the 1.6L.  I got a great deal for the car ($300 for a running driving car in decent shape), but has one major issue(and some minor ones): a massively leaking injection pump!

Well, i've never worked on one of these old diesels.  SO what am i getting into.  I'm no more than a shadetree mechanic.  I know i cannot rebuild the pump myself, so that will be commissioned  :cry:   But, is the removal, and subsequent re-installation something that can be handled by a newbie?  Or should i just commission the whole deal?  How much would that cost!?!?  So many questions...

Also, i've read on here about these "Giles Pumps".  Since my pump is leaking significantly, and will need a rebuild anyway, how much more would i pay to get my pump rebult by Giles over a stock rebuild?  From what i've read, it's definately worth it.  

My plans for the car are simple.  A reliable, economical daily driver.  Nothing special.  Though i will add things along the way to make the car more "efficient", like better exhaust and intake, etc.  I know, so many questions, but i appreciate any help!



Reply #1January 14, 2008, 09:09:48 pm

burn_your_money

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Total Newbie, injection pump questions
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 09:09:48 pm »
If you haven't already take a look in the FAQs at the threads related to setting pump timing, they will give you a general idea
Tyler

Reply #2January 14, 2008, 09:27:02 pm

The Mad Hatter

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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 09:27:02 pm »
I cannot tell from where it is leaking right now.  I don't want to start the car currently with its heater core issue (i'd rather not frag a head gasket looking for a fuel leak!).  I'm always the fan of doing it myself, but with the weather the way it is currently, and me having no garage, it makes spending long amounts of time outside no fun.  I've done lots of repairs (heater cores, fuel pumps, etc.), but i've NEVER messed with timing.  Guess its time to learn, right!   Best manual to use?  Tools needed?

Reply #3January 14, 2008, 10:30:09 pm

mtnbob

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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 10:30:09 pm »
Howdy neighbor!! I got an 86 golf 1.6 about 7 months ago. free if i could get it running after it sat for 7 years. i did and drove it home from charlotte. since then i have replaced most of the rubber: tires, belts, hoses, linkages. I had new rings and gaskets put in, new bearings, head and valves redone. I then had leaking problems from the inj pump. so had giles build a performance pump for me. the pump made a world of difference in the power and drivability. glad i did it. all told i am a little over $2000 for a "free" car :lol: I now have a great little car that gets over 40 mpg and will do 70 on the highway. As soon as i put new springs, struts, and shocks on it i'll be happy. The people on here have been great for advice!!!!!!! they have really made it a joy to work on and have work done on my car. unless there is ice on the road (i also have a awd outback) i am driving my golf!!!!
86 VW Golf 1.6 N/A 4-door (soon to be turboed!!!)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2598033828_d3d19f9842.jpg?v=0
96 Subaru Outback Wagon

Reply #4January 14, 2008, 10:31:01 pm

mtnsammy

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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2008, 10:31:01 pm »
Get the Bently manual first then download from this thread the factory guide.

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12132

Timing is not hard but do not take any short cuts or you will pop the head. Get the right tools and do it exactly like the book tells ya. Stop if you are not sure and all will work great. The clearance with the valves and the pistons will not allow much forgiveness. Heads crack easy and are expensive to repair if the shop will repair them.

Reply #5January 14, 2008, 10:54:22 pm

The Mad Hatter

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 10:54:22 pm »
Luckily my car has been driven recently, the pump only started leaking a few weeks ago.  I just got the car Sunday, and it really needs little to be ready to drive.  I will pick up a Bentley manual, and thanks for the thread link mtnsammy!  mtnbob, i pm'd you in interest of seeing how much a Giles pump ran you.  If it runs about the same as a stocker rebuild, might as well get the good stuff, right?

Reply #6January 14, 2008, 11:06:19 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 11:06:19 pm »
Get yerself a Bentley manual MK II Jetta/Golf (1985-1992). It covers all models including Diesels (turbo too, but that section is extremely thin). It covers all the dealer specified maintenance for the vehicle. You can usually find a good used copy on ebay for about $20-40. You can also try amazon, abebooks.com, or www.vwvortex.com. They come up from time to time. You shouldn't pay much more than about $35 to have one shipped to your door.

As far as your problems:
1) Injection Pump. Removing the pump is quite easy. You just need to uncrew the stop-solenoid wire, the 4 injection lines, the accelerator cable, the cold-start cable, and 4 bolts that hold the pump to the housing. Follow the Bentley instructions for removal.

You'll need the correct puller to get the sprocket off the pump before you can completely remove it. Jack at www.vwdieselparts.com has one for $75. Check it out here:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/tools.htm

I've seen some cheapy home-made ones on ebay for reasonable prices. I bought one from Jack since I do a lot of work on these cars. It's really nice quality. But the ones on ebay should work. Here's a link for one of the homemade ones that comes with the IP locking pin:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/vw-diesel-injection-pump-gear-puller-timming-pin_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35625QQihZ007QQitemZ170185728949QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

If you're not in the mood to buy the puller, you can do what I did before I bought the right tool. Loosen the 19mm nut on the pump sprocket first (about 4 turns), but LEAVE THE NUT ON THE SHAFT. Then, remove all the bolts, lines and wires to the pump so that the pump is flopping around inside the bracket. Hold the back side of the sprocket flat against the mounting bracket. Take a rubber hammer and give the center of the pump sprocket (i.e. nut) a few good whacks until the sprocket pops loose. By leaving the nut on the shaft, you won't lose the woodruff key. By using a rubber hammer, you reduce the risk of damage to the nut, the input shaft or the mounting bracket. Take the nut, key and sprocket off and you're ready to address the pump itself.

2) If the pump is working fine, and/or you're not too concerned with performance at the moment, and/or you working on the cheap, then you can simply have the pump resealed. red---rider (ebay name) in NC (not too far from you) can reseal it for about $150 shipped. He's done about 5 for me, and it's a fantastic bargain if you're leery about dealing with the pump internals yourself. Here's his ebay listing for the service:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Fuel-Injection-Pump-Resealed_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33555QQihZ015QQitemZ250203778727QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Turnaround is about 1-2 weeks.

If the pump is NOT working properly, then you may want to consider a rebuild. prothe rebuilds them (ebay and vwdiesel.net user name) for about $300-400. That's a fair bargain when you consider a normal rebuild runs about $500-700. If you want a Giles rebuild for performance, you're looking at about $600-1000 after shipping etc.

DO NOT buy a used pump unless it came off a recently running car that got smashed AND the pump was recently rebuilt. ANY used pump is going to start leaking at some point, unless it has been rebuilt/resealed in the past 4 months. The new fuel mandated by the EPA is causing all the leaks. It's inevitable that an old  (1995-older) pump will start leaking once it's been run on the new ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) sold in the US.

3) To reinstall the pump, you will need to buy/rent a dial indicator, IP sprocket lock pin, cam lock plate and timing tensioner wrench. You can get 3 of those from a guy in Germany who sells on ebay who's got all 3 for about $70-80. The nice thing about his dial indicator is that it's graded in mm, unlike most of the dial indicators sold here in the US which are graded in inches.

prothe (user name on ebay, and has an account here too), also sells a whole tool kit for the job, including the timing tensioner tool for $70. For all the tools, it's a good deal. It's not professional quality, but for your purposes, I'm sure that they'll be perfect. Here's a link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Gauge-Tools-Injection_W0QQitemZ230212844927QQihZ013QQcategoryZ43989QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Jack at vwdieselparts.com used to rent many of these tools. I'm not sure if he does anymore.

Follow the Bentley instuctions for procedure on reinstall. Or, do a search here for my posts, I think I did a long explanation on somebody's post about how to time the belt and the IP.

4) When you put your pump back on, it would be a great time to replace the:

water pump (w/housing)
thermostat
timing belt
timing belt tensioner
cam seal
intermediate shaft seals (there are 2)
front main seal
Lower water hoses (to heater line, and to rad)

Follow the instructions in the Bentley manual for the timing belt job. It's straight-forward and pretty easy. Just take your time and double/triple check that the marks are all correct. You may need to read the instructions 5 times to completely get what they're telling you to do (I still reference it all the time), and when it's all done, be sure to turn the motor over by hand at least 2 times to make sure that nothing is binding.

If you car does NOT have AC, then you can probably hold off on the water pump (assuming it's ok), since replacement of the pump can be done without removing the timing belt or the Injection pump. BUT, I will give you some sound advice on the water pump given my experiences with these cars in recent years:

If your pump has been leaking, and you will be removing it for service, you really MUST replace the water pump housing seal (the one between the housing and the block). The diesel fuel leaks down the block, degrades that seal, and causes leaks down the road. Since you'll have to replace that, you may as well go ahead and replace the water pump. New water pumps with housings are not that expensive (about $60-100). Since your car relies on cool temps (overheat and it's a blown head gasket), it's a nice preventative measure.

As far as the WP housing seal, trust me, if you do the IP job once, you won't want to do it again. You see, in order to replace that WP seal, you have to remove the Injection Pump (on AC cars, but still easier on NON-AC cars with the IP off) in order to access the bolts that hold the housing to the block. ON AC cars, you have to remove the AC mounting bracket. If you've got it all apart, then go ahead and replace the water pump, the thermostat and the housing seal (to the block: gasket is the same as the thermostat gasket) at the same time. You'll thank yourself later.

Again, you should replace the lower rad/front heater hoses too. I just did this job on a 1982 Rabbit Pickup and the guy wanted it done cheap. I suggested the hoses and he balked. One week later, he called me and told me both lower hoses blew (the one to the rad and the one to the heater distribution pipe that runs along the block). Thankfully, he didn't overheat the car.



So, there's the story in about a nutshell. This is all outlined in the Bentley, save for the personal tips. We're all here to help if you're in a bind. The big thing is to do research first (not a problem since this car isn't a daily, and the weather outside sucks), and take your time.

Just for schnitz and giggles, here's what you're looking at for costs:

REQUIRED:
Bentley Manual $20-50
Timing Belt $15-25
Timing Belt tensioner $15-30
Water Pump $30-45; W/housing $50-75 some brands come with housing  
       seals and t-stat seals too
Thermostat $12-25
Cam seal $5-8
Front main seal $5-8: same as above
Intermediate shaft seal $5-8: same as above
Intermediate shaft seal housing 0-ring seal $1-4
Lower Rad hose $5-15
Heater distribution/water pipe hose $5-10
Cooling hose (water pump to cyl head): $10-18
New V-Belts $15-30

TOOLS
Dial indicator, IP lock pin, cam lock pin, tensioner wrench: $80 from
       prothe on ebay.
IP sprocket puller $40-80 on ebay or vwdieselparts.com (or use hammer
     trick above)
Or, try to rent the tools above from Jack at vwdieselparts.com if he still rents them

In all, you're looking at about $400-700 for parts, tools and IP reseal service. If you can rent the tools, then it will cost less.

If you want/need to rebuild the pump, then figure on doubling that figure.

If you want to have a performance Giles rebuild of the pump, then triple that figure.

Now, how does this compare to having it done at a shop: it doesn't. Here's why. Most shops (even diesel specialty shops) are not familiar with these old VW diesels, and most mechanics don't know either VWs or diesels. Chances are, any normal shop would tell you to rebuild the pump. That's an automatic $600-800 at the shop before they even remove it or reinstall it. They' won't know to do all the other stuff either. Figure at least 4-7 hours labor on the timing belt and the IP reinstall, and you're looking at about $1000-1500 to have a rebuilt pump put on your car, with a new TB and water pump (without housing). Then, you'll still have to replace the hoses, seals, etc.

Here at my shop in TN, I charge a mere $700 for an IP reseal, timing belt, seals water pump and t-stat. If there are other problems (hoses, AC bracket problems, motor mounts, etc), then the price goes up from there. But, the car usually sits here for 2 weeks while the pump is resealed. But in your case, this shouldn't be an issue.  

Anyway, I'd say do it yourself if you feel you're up to it. As libbybapa notes, there's no greater satisfaction in knowing your own car, and being able to fix it.

Keep us posted, we're always here to help.

FYI: If your heater core is bad, it might be covered by VWs recall bulletin for the MK II Jetta and Golf. Call your local VW dealer, give them the VIN and have them check. They'll be able to tell if it's been replaced under the recall. If it is, then you get the job done for FREE! If not, that job is a BIYOTCH.

P.S. DO NOT buy tools from ZDMAK. That guy is a queef.

Reply #7January 15, 2008, 07:57:26 am

The Mad Hatter

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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2008, 07:57:26 am »
:o   WOW!  Many thanks for all the info Quantum TD!   I will probably be on here often seeking help with this thing, nice to know there is help!

Reply #8January 16, 2008, 10:39:27 am

FineFrank

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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 10:39:27 am »
Excellent post! Thanks for taking the time to write it.

I would add that if you've got the pump off, and you're replacing seals, you might as well replace the passenger side motor mount at the same time, so that you don't have to do it later.

 Techtonics makes a heavy duty unit that is supposed to be better than the gasser mount (the diesel mount is hard to locate nowadays, and I've heard that it's no longer being made).
Frank Longtine
1983 Rabbit Diesel 4 dr/ 1.6NA
1997 Rokon Trailbreaker
1984 Ford F-150/ 300-6

"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants"   -Albert Camus-

Reply #9January 16, 2008, 01:13:27 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 01:13:27 pm »
A very good point. On 1985-up cars, the mount is pretty easy to access though (on the back of the block). On Rabbits, it's a must to replace the mount if it's never been done yet. With the pump off anyway, it's the best time to do it.

FYI for anyone with a Rabbit Diesel thinking of changing the motot mount (pass side): If you haven't experienced the joy of that job, give yourself about 3-5 hours to do it. The new mounts are always round, the bracket is usually oval after being rattled for 100k+. I usually have to custom-mangle the new mounts to be able to press them in. Joy!

Also, don't even think about using a urethane mount. It will rattle your teeth out worse than a bad mount.

Reply #10February 12, 2008, 06:59:48 pm

v8volvo

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 06:59:48 pm »
Sorry to bring this one back from the dead. I'm looking at the same job on my Rabbit in a few weeks (still goin' with the original pump at 243k, but getting some seepage and there is definitely something funny going on with the dynamic advance and internal pressure, it's pretty much pooped out by 4000 rpm). Did the whole water pump, timing belt, etc job last year, so it will just be an injection pump, front seals, and motor mount R&R. No diesel leakage from the pump shaft seal, front of the motor is dry, so I'm not worried about that WP seal.

Here's what I'm wondering, and Quantum TD, if you want to chime in again with more wisdom, feel free.  :wink:

1. The two pump options you mentioned, prothe and Giles, are the same two I was already considering. Have you bought a rebuilt pump from prothe before, and if so, what's the story? His are much cheaper than any others I've found, so I'm wondering if the pumps still go through the full calibration process (internal pressure setting, bench testing, etc) and how the pumps turn out. If you've installed one, how did the car run afterwards? I know the Giles pumps work magic and I'm tempted, but an $800 fuel pump on a $900 car pushing 250,000 miles is a little tough to stomach...

2. What is the story on the motor mounts. What's the recommended kind, that will not break before the next time I have to go in there for the timing belt but also will not shake my eyes out of their sockets? And where can it be bought? Seems there's a lot of confusion about this, I was reading about it here and over at the vwdieselparts.com forum and everyone's having problems getting so-called diesel mounts that are actually gasser mounts and break basically on the first drive around the block.

Any help on any of this would be much appreciated!!!

Thanks --

George

Reply #11February 12, 2008, 11:41:37 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 11:41:37 pm »
I've personally never bought a pump from Giles or prothe, so I cannot vouch for either. Giles seems to have universal support from everyone here, so you can't go wrong. The only issues I've ever heard is from US customers and their problems with packages gone missing at the border en route to Canada. But, I think that Giles and Co. have a procedure to prevent loss of you pump on the way in. From what I gather, there are no problems on the way out.

As for prothe, I suggest you read up on his ebay feedback rating. He sells alot to EU and USA from what I can tell. I've tried searching his feedback to find someone who's actually bought a complete, rebuilt pump from him, and what their feedback was. I was unable to find ANY feedback from recent buyers of pumps. So, it's apparently not a big seller. As for calibration, you can email him yourself from this forum (he has an account here), or do some independent research. Check out this active thread on TDIclub about defunt/misrepresented products:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199567&highlight=prothe

That's for some turbo stuff, so take it with a grain of salt. But it may lend some insight into his overall character.

If you want to find a middle ground, you may try

http://www.partsplaceinc.com/

Searching their catalog is a bit of a PITA, but I think I saw that they had rebuilt pumps for about $500-600. It's in the range for what a local shop would charge for a rebuild/recalibration. Anyone can diassemble/ reassemble a pump and replace the fautly parts, but it's the calibration that's the hard part/requires special tools.  

Or, go local and hit your local Bosch certified repair shop. I'm sure that there are tons of Bosch diesel shops in WA; I see tons of diesel cars coming out of there, so there has to be a good shop in the area that will rebuild your pump for a fair price.

As for the mounts, I just get what my dad suppliers sell him through WorldPac or IMC parts. The part number they give is a 171 199 214 G. I think that the original number is a 171 199 214 K. The brand I usually get is  Meyle (OEM supplier). I really don't think that the "K" style is available anymore. Even the dealer has superceded to a universal fit mount: they use number 171 199 214 F.

I think that the mounts all have the same general hardness factor (perhaps the "G" is a bit stiffer), but I think that the real difference is that the original Westmoreland VW (USA Built) Rabbits had a motor mount that you could replace WITHOUT removing the bracket to press in the mount. If you look at your old mount, you'll see that it is split (making it easy to install into the bracket) with just has some tabs on the side that hold it in place. The newer mounts are press-to-fit.

I've used the new Meyle mounts on my own Rabbit and customer's cars. I've never had a problem with them (except the installation). They do a wonderful job of removing the vibration. Just be sure to mark the orientation of your old mount when removing it from the bracket (top/front, etc.). The *** Bentley manual provides no indication as to which way the mount should be oriented.

Anyway, you can get the 171 199 214 G at your local CarQuest dealer if you order in advance. I doubt that they have them in stock. Or, just order the "F" mount from Worldimpex, 1stvwparts, or your local dealer. Stick to the Meyle brand mounts, and you should be fine. If they try to sell you a brand called "First Equipment Quality" or any variation of those words: steer clear. That is an absolute *** brand made in China.

When ordering, you may want to buy the rubber washers that go on either side of the newer style mounts. Originally, the diesel mount  had built-in buffers, but the new style mounts do not. The newer mounts are supposed to be used with some 171 199 125a  buffers (called "washers' at the dealer). They run about $15 for the pair. You can live without them though. I just mentioned it for the truly anal retentive.

Reply #12February 13, 2008, 12:34:52 am

Quantum TD

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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2008, 12:34:52 am »
I just realized: if you want an HD mount, you might be able to use the 16V Scirocco mount. It's part number is:

533 199 214A

It's about the only available "Heavy Duty" mount out there for the diesel, and it ain't cheap: about 2-3x the cost of the 171 199 214G. But it may be a good idea for people who are turning alot of torque. In your case, I'd stick to the cheaper one.

Reply #13February 13, 2008, 04:32:54 am

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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2008, 04:32:54 am »
Awesome writeup Quantum! Maybe a mod should move this into the FAQ too?
1990 TD Jetta - 490,000Km

Reply #14February 15, 2008, 03:02:37 pm

v8volvo

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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 03:02:37 pm »
Quantum TD: thanks for all the great info, much appreciated!

Wth my 1.6NA engine, even if I go for a Giles pump and maybe later on prothe's turbo upgrade package (which I will be very interested in!), I don't think I'll be at the level of twist of a 16v gasser. However, in searching the web and forums for more info about diesel motor mounts, I came upon a LOT of discussion of which of the mounts you can get nowadays really last in a diesel, and which don't. There's enough info that I think people would be interested in here, esp since a lot of you GTD guys are making way more power than VW probably thought those mounts were ever gonna have to live through, so I'll start a new thread about mounts. Check it out.

Thanks again!

 

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