what to do to get reliable 200hp?

[Han Solo]

hello everyone,

i want to start off by saying im new to the whole engine modification and tuning arena.  this project is the first engine i have ever done work on, and ive spent alot of time reading up on the topic.

especially here there is alot of good information that has helped me learn alot about making diesel power. there is a wealth of knowledge here in this forum and i hope i can take some of that knowledge and apply it to my own project and know even more when the engine is all said and done.

however sifting through all the information and topics on the various setups and opinions on how to make power and how to keep driveability ive gotten too many ideas swirling around in my head.  so im still unsure of just what needs to be done to achieve 200hp while staying dd-able. or more specifically the simplest way to go about doing it. I currently have a 1.6na and my plans are:

1) get oil squirter's machined into the block for cooling

2) get a aaz head for better airflow

3) get a turbo setup then turn up the boost and use a small water cooled intercooler to prevent lag while still cooling the air

4) get a aaz fuel pump

5) get 1.6td pistons so i dont "karate chop" of the squirter's

6) lighten and balance the crank (dont knife edges because it increases vibration?)

7) lighten the flywheel

get the PP cam if the site ever gets finished

9) port and polish intake and exhaust

10) run a 3" exhaust

11) ceramic coat exhaust and specific engine components

12) use a windage tray to prevent oil splash around crankshaft

13) front mount setrab oil cooler from a volvo to help cooling

questions:

1) i know i need more oil pressure for the squirter's, so do i just get a td oil pump?

2) how long does it generally take Giles to tune a pump? and how do i go about contacting him?

3) is a twin turbo setup overkill? other than machining intake and exhaust parts, how hard is it to run?

4) when balancing the crank what all is involved? crank, crank gear, and flywheel? or just crank and gear?

5) would the 1.6td pistons be up for the task of that range of power and boost or would i need the alh forged items?

6) im sure im over looking something, but would that setup get me to my goal (or near it) while still being drivable?

7) any other good ideas or tips?

my main goal is to be able to get up hills at highway speeds and pass people on the highway, and just have some fun flying with the diesel

thanks for the help in advance,

-Jay

[vanagonturbo]

Jay, this is an excellent topic. I hope other will chime in here. Your goal is a good one, although I am not sure how feasable it is. I can answer a few of your questions and negate one of your speculations.

speculation #3.

an air to water intercooler is only acceptable if there is absulotely no room for an air to air unit. air to water intercoolers are only more effective than air to air when applied in a drag race scenario when ice and such can be added for cooling. Air to air is the way to go if you have room and are not running into a problem with huge charge pipe lengths.

Q #1: TD or hydraulic oil pump will do the trick. For some reason 46mm comes to mind

Q#4: the entire rotating assembly is whats needed for balancing. Crank, rods, entire clutch kit, flywheel, bolts (only so the balancer can attach things), crank pulley(s), pistons, and rods.

Q#5: ALH pistons will not work at all. They are of the TDI variety and will make your engine not run. Look into ceramic coating the stock pistons if you are worried about high temps.

HTH and I hope those that know more will contribute. I shall be watching this thread constantly.

[jtanguay]

air to water intercooler has many benefits.  firstly you can put an air water intercooler with less piping than an air/air intercooler.  (less turbo lag and less awkward bends in piping. if done correctly of course)

plus water can hold 4 times the amount of heat that the same volume of air can hold.  that is quite substantial.  benefits from that are less heat soak in traffic, and the ability to hold boost for much longer periods while keeping the charge air temperature down.  sure ice water will keep the temps down really low, but for a street car that is unnecessary.  i think overall the air/water intercooler is superior in theory.  the radiator used to cool the liquid can be as large as the cars radiator and be much more efficient than those smaller intercoolers.

now for the drawbacks.  it absolutely requires an electrical pump to function; sucks juice from the alternator.  if the liquid reaches high enough temperature, it will take much longer to cool down without some sort of fan blowing on the radiator.  this requires that the cars fans be run, or an auxiliary fan of some sort.  either way it is another draw on the electrical system.

so the air/water system is geared more to the power hungry minded because of its potential for efficiency, and ability to absorb much more heat than a regular air/air intercooler.  but because of the necessity for an electrical pump and hoses, it makes it less desireable.  i've considered running a system like that myself and using a thermoswitch to control the pump.  i would most likely install the thermocouple inside to measure the charge air temperature and control the pump by that.  controlling the pump by water temperature would be way too 'laggy' as the water takes a while to heat up.  it wouldn't be hard at all to rig something up to a secondary radiator either.  just think about it... if your rad can cool down your engine that creates tons of heat, just imagine what it can do to your charge air temps  :wink:  but you do need a high flow high psi pump.  the more psi the better as it will carry the most heat to be dispersed.

i dunno... the more i think about it the more air/water sounds better.  its just that damn water pump for reliability...  then again the air/air intercooler can be a bit of a drag on the system in traffic though...  the intercooler will succum to heat soak and actually increase the charge air temps making the car run worse... but for the most part everyone is launching their cars and accelerating fast with lots of air flowing through the intercooler which makes them work great.

some in-between options include water/meth injection into the charge air stream, and also a water spray kit to spray onto the intercooler.  evaporative cooling works excellent since the water absorbs so much heat when it evaporates.  but then again you still need a pump!  :lol:

RabbitGTDGuy has an air/water setup, but i'm not sure how his is going.  i think his radiator is a bit small though  :wink: i would probably just pick up one of those newer skinny radiators to conserve space.  the fins are sooo fine it must do a great job at getting rid of the heat!

check out his mTDI:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1956&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

[MJF]

I donīt know what do you mean by reliable 200hp. So far 3000km with 2,4bar boost and 220 crank hp with no problems. But Iīm not expecting it to hold for tens of thousands kmīs either :lol:

[bert]

what you got mjf?  :twisted:
Bert

[MJF]

Aaz block, 1,6 crank, 1Y pistons, carrillo rods, main girdle, 1,6 mech head, ARP head studs, stock cam & injectors, gt2359v, 3" exhaust and 12mm pump.

[bert]

:shock:
Bert

[Han Solo]

thanks for the help everyone  

on the topic of the intercooler, i was thinking, what if i just hooked it into the current water cooling system and upgraded the pump somehow? i could run the water line through the intercooler first then bring it back down into the block.

another idea i just got would be to have the intercooler oil cooled with a fan. i figure that would absorb loads of heat?

ive also seen people using old mustang radiators, anyone have any experience with them? and i was also thinking about using the dual fan setup from newer vw's to help move the air.

im hoping with all those additions to the cooling process i wont have to worry too much about egts

how much boost are you running MJF? and do you have a build thread? its encouraging to see that someone got to my goal, and it sound like it was fairly easy.

[Han Solo]

well that idea is toast haha

would a g60 water pump be an upgrade for the system?

[91MF]

we should section this sucker off

-reliable 100hp

-reliable 150hp

-reliable[?] 200hp

like stages, nahmeen? so people know what to get/do first.

i am also new to the diesel world and would love to get even just 100hp out of my 1991 TD jetta.

[Han Solo]

^that would likely help 1st timers out alot, such as myself

i just want to get power between 150 and 200hp, and obviously the more the better. i just dont know how much i need to do to get there, and i dont want to have to go back and redo alot of stuff after i get the motor working.

[shegel]

my dad has always told me this when we talked about modding his mustang.....

cheap, fast, reliable....you can pick only two

[RabbitGTDguy]

RabbitGTDGuy has an air/water setup, but i'm not sure how his is going.  i think his radiator is a bit small though  :wink: i would probably just pick up one of those newer skinny radiators to conserve space.  the fins are sooo fine it must do a great job at getting rid of the heat!

check out his mTDI:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1956&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

My setup is up and running and working great. I have had no problems as of yet with the size of the radiator that I am using and its size is also very deceiving do to the thickness of the radiator itself. Also, I have a fairly large reserve/res. not to mention the capacity intercooler jacket itself and the lines I've run. During the hot days this summer and after sustained boost runs I've been able to easily feel the intercooler pipes and discern a distinct difference in temperature pre and post intercooler the intake manifold is cool to the touch. I've been amazed at the system actually compared to my previous experiences with air/air intercooling (my previous IDI GTD MK1, Lysholm Stg 4 Corrado and a few others). If you read most major theories on air/water intercooling and doing it properly, the size of the heat exchanger itself is more at the least of importance because of the amount of time that any particular amount of water sees the exchanger itself. The res. size is a more important feature as well as the overall capacity of the system itself.
I plan on refining the system slightly this winter and either adding a filler port to the "keg" I'm using for my res. and may try to find a larger/thinner heat exchanger just to make things "fit" more easily. I'd like to also had an pre/post intake air temp measurement system and possibly control my pump as well by a thermoswitch...if I find a small/thin radiator with a switch bung in it, I may be able to do this via the use of a OEM switch and some resistors to get it to turn on/off as I need it. However, using a series of VR6 auxilary water pumps (the same as a Ford Lightening intercooler pump), I've had no problems. Also, haven't had an draw problems on the electrical system...especially being mTDI, I don't have that many electrical demands. My pump is one that I arm/run all of the time.
I'm very happy with the system and its performance thus far and only look towards refinement!

Joe

[vanagonturbo]

interesting. I have to admit that my only experience with air/water intercoolers is on Vanagons. The first one we did had a fairly small radiator (about 20"x8"x1"). After driving the van on the freeway at a sustained speed of around 75MPH I checked the reservoir temp (1.5gal) and the intercooler. Both were almost hot to the touch. The pump was a VR6 aux water pump.

We decided that was unacceptable so we redesigned the core to about 36x42x2 and that helped a bit. Still had a warm intercooler and warm charge pipes post intecooler.

On my scirocco, I have an air/air unit. After getting off the freeway the post cooler charge pipe is cold to the touch. Same thing with the intake manifold. I have another friend with a 1.8t in his scirocco and after a good freeway run, his intake manifold was ICE cold.

I guess if most of your driving is around town an air/water might be ok. I just prefer to stick with what I have seen and know. Also on the point of water being able to absorb 4 times the amount of heat; although that may be correct, how long does it take to dissipate that heat? I would venture to guess it takes longer to cool off water than it does to cool off aluminum with air blowing through it.

Then there is also the consideration of weight. Water weighs quite a bit more than aluminum. I think I will stick with my 3 psi pressure drop and have a cold intake vs. adding an extra cooling system and having a warm intake.

[RabbitGTDguy]

interesting. I have to admit that my only experience with air/water intercoolers is on Vanagons. The first one we did had a fairly small radiator (about 20"x8"x1"). After driving the van on the freeway at a sustained speed of around 75MPH I checked the reservoir temp (1.5gal) and the intercooler. Both were almost hot to the touch. The pump was a VR6 aux water pump.

We decided that was unacceptable so we redesigned the core to about 36x42x2 and that helped a bit. Still had a warm intercooler and warm charge pipes post intecooler.

On my scirocco, I have an air/air unit. After getting off the freeway the post cooler charge pipe is cold to the touch. Same thing with the intake manifold. I have another friend with a 1.8t in his scirocco and after a good freeway run, his intake manifold was ICE cold.

I guess if most of your driving is around town an air/water might be ok. I just prefer to stick with what I have seen and know. Also on the point of water being able to absorb 4 times the amount of heat; although that may be correct, how long does it take to dissipate that heat? I would venture to guess it takes longer to cool off water than it does to cool off aluminum with air blowing through it.

Then there is also the consideration of weight. Water weighs quite a bit more than aluminum. I think I will stick with my 3 psi pressure drop and have a cold intake vs. adding an extra cooling system and having a warm intake.

Well, thats quite the slam to any air-water intercooling system right there I guess....according to your opinion anyways. I don't think its the best way to approach that topic but to each his own.

cost wise, air-air is much cheaper...and is ok efficiency wise...  air-water...more costly, but more efficient if designed properly.

I can't imagine having effective air-water intercooler, or a good intercooler setup on a vanagon in the first place (i've had one too... and a friend of mine does TDI, m-TDI, AAZ, etc. etc. swaps in vanagons all the time as well as has his own Syncro mTDI ). I can tell you right off the bat that a 1.5 gal res. is half the size you need for an effective system.

I can argue the pros/cons of it all night and there are merits to each respective system out there.  I've even whipped out the books too in the past. I can only vouch for my setup and what it has done thus far and the care that I took in putting it together (the air/water unit itself was originally for the Lysholm 'rado but I sold it before I ever installed it). Your reference to warm intake air I hope is in regards to your own system that you had previously had on the vanagon I'm assuming because mine is def. cool... That, I'll bring to the table anytime. Part of wanting to upgrade a few items on it...or rather, add on is to provide air temp measurements as they are SIGNIFICANT.

Now...Ice cold...lets talk about that...

 I'd love to see a 1.8T intake manifold that is ICE cold to the touch (or any gasser for that matter), especially when heat dissapates back through the manifold when the car is off, at idle or not under load...
I suppose if it was really cool outside, maybe running some sort of misting system? I don't know...but just straight intercooling, I'd like to see ICE cold.

I too am not worried about the very amount of weight that the water in my system contributes to the cars overall weight (5 gal overall...maybe ...especially considering the mk1 body (the heavy beast that it is lol) ... not to mentioned the engine's overall power itself...think there is a tradeoff there...
I'm not drag racing either nor have become a weight weenie with the car. It was built for fun driving (which by the way...most is interstate driving).

Twas a friendly post highlighting extra information in reference to a post linked to my project page.

To each his own...

Happy New Year!!!

Joe