Author Topic: Timing Gauge (Read 13460 times)

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #30 on:** January 27, 2008, 01:36:46 pm »

...and that would be why you now have valves hitting pistons... cause that ain't TDC from the crank's perspective !!!

As I read back thru this thread you mention the crank "stopping" while you were rotating backwards to set the timing... it all makes sense now.

You'll need to find the real TDC and put a new mark on your flywheel... or pull the tranny and put the flywheel on correctly. The problem with the flywheel being on incorrectly is that a Previous Owner may have mashed the pins down to get it on wrong... meaning that it might not be straight etc...

Depends how deep you want to dig into this....

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #31 on:** January 27, 2008, 02:41:42 pm »

Ok I pulled the 4th injector. I turned the crank clockwise and the metal stick Im using to check the piston went down. I turned until the crank stopped but the stick never went back up. So, I turned counter clock wise and the stick rose until it seemed to reach the top, but the last lobe of the camshaft on the drivers side was pointing completely down. At this point, can I take the timing belt off and turn the camshaft by the cam sprocket to TDC. Same with the IP, then check to see if the piston is at the top of its travel. If it is, then the cylinders are at TDC correct? I should then be able to reinstall the timing belt with everything lined up. I will then put a new mark on the flywheel. Does this sound ok?

I dont have a lot of time to open the tranny. I will probably get to it over the summer. I am a teacher so I will have lots of time to play with it later. Right now I need this thing to get to school. Ive been taking the train lately through some bad neighborhoods in the bronx. Its getting to be kinda a hassle.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2008, 02:51:38 pm »

Quote from: "Vincent Waldon"

...and that would be why you now have valves hitting pistons... cause that ain't TDC from the crank's perspective !!!

As I read back thru this thread you mention the crank "stopping" while you were rotating backwards to set the timing... it all makes sense now.

You'll need to find the real TDC and put a new mark on your flywheel... or pull the tranny and put the flywheel on correctly. The problem with the flywheel being on incorrectly is that a Previous Owner may have mashed the pins down to get it on wrong... meaning that it might not be straight etc...

Depends how deep you want to dig into this....

Ouch. Yeah. That's not TDC, and Vince is right. Someone put the flywheel on wrong. I've seen it happen before. In fact, I've got a diesel motor in my garage that I bought from a j-yard cheap. It had great compression, so I bought it. I tried to crank it over in the yard (out of the car), so I put a trans and starter on to try to start it. It didn't want to start. So I checked the timing marks, and I coudn't find the flywheel mark. I freaked out. Then I thought to check the flywheel. Sure enough, someone had mangled one of the centering pins on the flywheel and managed to bolt it up about 40 degrees off the mark.

It's is possible that you've found some errant mark on the flywheel that looks like TDC. On a Rabbit/Jetta, it should be an 'O' with a notch above it. If not, then the flywheel if off the mark.

The only way to really solve the problem is to pull the trans and reset the flywheel. I guess you could try the screwdriver trick, but it would have to be quite thin. Perhaps use a straight piece of coat hanger.

Wow, that sucks. But, it's not the end of the world. I pray you didn't hit the starter and bend you valves. That would really suck.

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #33 on:** January 28, 2008, 08:02:32 pm »

Ok, so I used a bbq skewer to feel when #4 piston fully up. But Im not close enough to TDC. When I tried to time the pump it was at 40 on the large dial when the pump was moved fully away from the motor. Shouldn't it be at around .98? I did not have time to play with it any more. I am getting closer, but I could not start it. It does turn now with out interference at least.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #34 on:** January 28, 2008, 09:13:39 pm »

Um. I'm a bit confused.

At this point you should have done the following:
1) Removed the camshaft in order to locate TDC on the bottom end. This way, you won't bend any valves when you rotate the crank with the timing belt removed.

2) Located TDC on the block by removing an injector, inserting an appropriate tool (skewer in your case), and MAKING a mark on the flywheel when the #1 or #4 piston is at the top of its motion.

3) Re-install the camshaft with the lobes for #1 up/away. Once the cam is installed, lock the camshaft, lock the IP, set the flywheel to your new TDC mark and install the timing belt as you normally would.

If you've done all tha above, then you can set the IP timing. Set your flywheel mark to TDC. Insert the timing gauge tool into the pump and rotate backwards to get the reading, after you've set at least 2-3 mm of preload and zeroed out the dial.

If you've done that, the reading you're getting is .40mm, and the pump is rotated all the way forward (i.e. away from the motor), then that is normal. In order to advance the timing (i.e. get closer to the specified .98mm), then you will have to rotate the pump towards the block.

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2008, 10:29:25 am »

so I did all that, but I have one question. Technically, is TDC when the #1 & #4 piston first reach the top of there cycle or is it the point when they reach the top just before they start to drop again. There seems to be a little bit of time when they are up just before they start to drop again. I want to make sure I get it correct.

jimfoo · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2008, 10:50:48 am »

I believe it is right in the middle of the two. In reality the piston only stops for an instant, but it would only be detectable with a dial indicator. If you take the average of where you detect no movement, that should be TDC.

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2008, 07:01:49 pm »

So I came upstate today and got everything lined up and in time. I have it set at .98mm. One problem with that is that the pump pushes up against one of the fuel lines. It was that way when I took ownership of the car though. I have put a heavy piece of rubber between the line and the pump to help ease vibrations. Another problem I faced tonight was a dead starter. It was trying to turn very weak. I could turn the crank by hand fairly easily though. There seems to be enough juice too, I tried jumping it to be sure. So Im going home again with out my car. I'll order a starter this week and hopefully have this thing on the road soon. That long train ride through BX is getting old fast. I have a 15minute drive to school or a 45 minute to an hour train ride through some rough neighborhoods. And its much cheaper to drive too!

blkboostedtruck · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2008, 10:57:04 pm »

just skip one tooth on the I.P.sproket and that will get you away from the fuel lines! Joe(rabbit gtd guy) here on the forum has been selling a new diesel starter! he lives in new york!
thanks Duane

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #39 on:** February 10, 2008, 01:10:29 pm »

I came home again this weekend to work on the car. I am very frustrated and dont know where to go from here. I put in a new starter and a new battery today. I Jumped the pump one tooth on the IP sprocket and rotated the pump away from the motor and timed it to .98 mm. I tried starting it and got kind of a funny sound. I dont know how to describe it, but it sounded like it was firing kinda funny, like a little off. The crank turns with nothing binding, but something sounds funny.

I've run into many problems along my way here, and this is what I have done since I stopped driving the car back after thanksgiving weekend:

I pulled the head and sent it out for a valve job and resurfacing.
I've changed:

Headgasket and all other associated gaskets
Timing belt
4 new injectors
cleaned and replaced fuel lines
vacuum pump lines
starter
battery
battery cables and grounds

Now, if you recall, when I took this thing apart every thing seemed to be out of time. The cam lobes were not set to TDC with either the IP sproket or the Flywheel. Now, I have determined that the Flywheel is on incorrectly by checking the position of the 4th piston. I made a new mark on the flywheel where the #4 piston was at the top of its travel. I set the cam to the new flywheel mark and checked that nothing was binding by turning the crank with the timing belt on. I set the sproket to TDC to match the new mark on the flywheel by locking the pump sproket in place with the marks lining up and the pin in place. I checked the pump timing and moved the pump all the way forward toward the engine. It came in contact with the fuel lines just as it did when I pulled the head. I jumped the IP sproket ahead one tooth and moved the pump away from the motor setting the timing to .98mm. Then I checked the timing for consistency.

This was my first time doing any of this. I am now totally stuck and frustrated as hell. I need help badly and don't know what to do.

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #40 on:** February 19, 2008, 04:09:15 pm »

SHE RUNS!!! :beer: :beer: :beer:
Hollar... I went through and retimed everything today to be sure. That went smoothly. Still, I had some air in the lines. Cranked the hell out of it and gave it some gas... boom it starts up with a nice puff of smoke and ran well. I'm at about .98mm and I may advance it to about 1.08. Im happy though. Very happy.

Quantum TD · « **Reply #41 on:** February 19, 2008, 06:48:38 pm »

Good news! Finally.

Now that it runs, be sure your cooling system is in good working order (new thermostat, flush, new fan switch). You'd hate to have done all that work to have a *** fan switch ruin all your work. This time of year, it may not be a problem, but when the weather gets warmer...

blkboostedtruck · « **Reply #42 on:** February 19, 2008, 07:00:01 pm »

good deal! so was it as hard as it seemed?
and i would stay at .98mm or 1.00mm for N/A
a turbo you would want more advance but a turbo motor runs good a 1.00mm
i'm at 1.05mm with my turbo and i'm pushing 20psi
and my N/A i'm at .95mm
thanks Duane

chasingrabbitsvw · « **Reply #43 on:** February 23, 2008, 01:50:25 am »

So I got it running, let it get warm and tightened the head bolts. While I had the valve cover off again I figured I would adjust the timing to bring the pump away from the fuel lines a little bit. I moved the IP sprocket ahead a tooth and retarded the pump to get a proper reading. Heres what I got right now, but it doesnt want to fully start again and stay running.

Heres the flywheel mark I made, as close to TDC as I could. I based this on the position of the crank sprocket, and peering through the #4 injector hole. I made a mark on the fly wheel at the exact moment on the flywheel where the piston finishes rising, and then again where the piston begins to fall. The distance on the flywheel is a few centimeters. I made my mark as accurate to the center of those to points as I possibly could.

Heres my cam locked at TDC

Heres my pump in position where it would lock in, the IP sprocket notch, and the gauge reading at TDC:

I have good compression, and Im getting fuel, but it does not want to fully come on and stay running.

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #44 on:** February 23, 2008, 02:24:49 am »

The challenge is that there's quite a "dead spot" at the top of the piston's travel... meaning that when you are near TDC you can rotate the crank a fair bit and the piston won't travel much. This makes an accurate TDC mark real difficult to determine, and if it's off your timing will be off, etc etc

I've never had to do it personally, but a much more accurate method (albeit more work!) is to use a feeler down the injector hole to come up to a known point in the piston's stroke... say an inch from TDC... and scribe a mark on the flywheel. You then rotate the engine backwards and come up against the feeler in the opposite direction, again scribing a mark on the flywheel.

TDC is now exactly in the middle of the two marks, and you've avoided the inaccuracies of the dead zone at the top of the piston's stroke.

Or, hillbilly tune it by ear, since it is running, just not the way you want.

Or, pull the flywheel.. ack !! Needed a new clutch anyways ??!! ;-)