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Author Topic: M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...  (Read 29317 times)

Reply #15December 10, 2007, 10:51:37 pm

Tintin

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2007, 10:51:37 pm »
It's complicated to exlain........    for first before reshimming anything, what sort of idle control you have?  

Normally when one built M-pump or pumps, It's very important to measure, check and take and adjust some moving parts inside the pump to ensure that all the pieces is in the spec and/or to make sure that all the pumps fonctionnality work well or all the maxed parts work according with other parts.

After this......    it remains to adjust the pump.

There are too much thing inside the pump to explain one by one, that would take one day.

For hanging RPM......  if I would have the pump in my hand, I would regulate it in 10 minutes, but to regulate it on a post, it is more difficult.

1: make sure that the idle system work properly, or if it have the correct spring hardness if the spring is mounted on the control shaft.

2: no interference between maxed parts.

3: governor tube move enought to control (regulate) all the distance of the lever range.

Reply #16December 13, 2007, 07:16:59 am

DA-BRT

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 07:16:59 am »
I build the pump for Sander. I have experienced more of these problems with pumps that where build of IDI stuff.

The problem is within the control leaver and trottle shaft.


For the control leaver (is this the english word for the part?)

On the side there is a different offset between the holes. On a bigger DI of IDI pump the offset between the mountinghole (with the triangle head bolt) is a lot smaller than on our IDI pumps.

I will illustrate it tonight with pictures. The problem is that much of the controlleavers aren't interchangable with our pumps. The problem is that the govenor is on the other side.

I tried modifying an older IDI part with changed offset of the holes. But the material of the contol leaver is so damn hard I killed a drill.


The arm length of the trottle shaft is also different. On ours the length is shorter than on a bigger IDI or DI pump. This is not the biggest problem, cut them appart and weld it again.

Does anyone from you knows which control leaver can be used in custom pumps? Or do I have to make them myself.

I also use a cut-open pump to see the settings and how to shim the nessesary parts.

Reply #17December 13, 2007, 09:05:41 am

Tintin

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 09:05:41 am »
Ford Transit 2.5DI pump have the best control lever that I never found.

I know the material of this lever is very hard, but I have a hard drill set and I am able to bore them to modify them.

Reply #18December 13, 2007, 09:08:11 am

DA-BRT

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 09:08:11 am »
@Tintin, have you got a pump nr from that ford pump?

I can put it on the milling machine, but that's going to be around christmas.

Reply #19December 13, 2007, 10:34:33 am

RabbitGTDguy

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 10:34:33 am »
It is amazing the number of different pumps, etc. available on the other side of the pond that would make the mTDI conversion so much easier. Still though...modification in the end.
Shimming of the gov. and the overall governor mod is def. important but depending on your setup, like DA-BRT and TinTin mention there are modifications that need to be done to the control lever assembly itself (as illustrated above). However, the control lever involves and effects more of the "full throttle response" vs. hanging RPM problems in my experience. Using the stock IDI control lever assembly seriously limits your fueling potential of the pump on an mTDI. That is just one factor.

I'd like to see how one of our "mTDI" pumps would perform on a test bench ... that'd be nice. No one around here will test outside factory Bosch parameters though. I'd like to have my pump tested... but I haven't even found someone to pop and reshim my injectors for the R520's currently installed!!!

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #20December 13, 2007, 10:49:43 am

Slave2School

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 10:49:43 am »
Quote from: "RabbitGTDguy"
It is amazing the number of different pumps, etc. available on the other side of the pond that would make the mTDI conversion so much easier. Still though...modification in the end.
Shimming of the gov. and the overall governor mod is def. important but depending on your setup, like DA-BRT and TinTin mention there are modifications that need to be done to the control lever assembly itself (as illustrated above). However, the control lever involves and effects more of the "full throttle response" vs. hanging RPM problems in my experience. Using the stock IDI control lever assembly seriously limits your fueling potential of the pump on an mTDI. That is just one factor.

I'd like to see how one of our "mTDI" pumps would perform on a test bench ... that'd be nice. No one around here will test outside factory Bosch parameters though. I'd like to have my pump tested... but I haven't even found someone to pop and reshim my injectors for the R520's currently installed!!!

Joe


Send it to Giles :D  I'm sure he could hook you up with a read out from your pump.
Waiting for a bigger better diesel to come along.
2002 ford focme wagon

Reply #21December 13, 2007, 12:13:51 pm

Reply #22December 13, 2007, 12:23:04 pm

Tintin

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 12:23:04 pm »
Or, check this, It's a ducato 2.5TDI pump, direct fit without modification or adjustment, this pump have the same came plate than the TDI VW.

It's expensive but that will give a lot of power: http://cgi.ebay.de/Einspritzpumpe-Fiat-Ducato-230-2-5L-TDI-1291_W0QQitemZ180190208821QQihZ008QQcategoryZ61258QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Reply #23December 13, 2007, 03:23:27 pm

Vento G60

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2007, 03:23:27 pm »
Guys, thanks for all the reply's here. I haven't been able to pry my computer out of my girlfriends fingers, she's hooked to some kind of tetris game on the net...... :evil:

But, I did try this week to re-index the throttle shaft lever. I ended up re-indexing it so that the idle screw (I mean the one that blocks the throttle lever, and you set the idle with) was turned in much more than before. Strange thing was, that with the max fuel screw untouched (so at the same setting as before re-indexing the throttle shaft), it would pull harder, but also hang in rpm's more! :?  So now I just turned the max fuel screw back out a bit to keep it driveable, and it pulls roughly the same, or maybe a bit harder than it did before re-indexing.

When I was adjusting the throttle shaft, without the lever being on, I could turn the shaft by hand, in the first quarter of the turn, it seems to have no resistance at al, but in the part after that, I could feel that I was compressing a spring. That would be the spring in the governor lever assembly? Because I think the resistance to turn it was to light for being the governor spring I modified. I think tonight I'm going to try to re-index the throttle shaft so that the idle screw is set almost all the way in, so I have the longest stroke on the lever with my gas pedal. Maybe that will help a little. I'll post my findings when I'm finished.

 Bert, I'll be dropping by soon, so you can finally have a drive and tell me how you think my little cabbie is running. Maybe I'm expecting to much of her with the short tranny and without the use of an IC....
Vw's rock!

Reply #24December 13, 2007, 06:09:31 pm

RabbitGTDguy

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2007, 06:09:31 pm »
I can tell you right there that the symptoms you are now experiencing by reindexing the throttle shaft do indicate that you have some shimming and work to do on the control lever assembly (as referenced above).

Been there :)

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #25December 14, 2007, 04:56:29 am

DA-BRT

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2007, 04:56:29 am »
Step by step.

@TinTin: Thanks for the pump number I'm going to order the control leaver of the Ford pump

This week I'm going to modify the control leaver and trottle shaft leaver. After that shimming the pump on a test pump housing.

Reply #26December 14, 2007, 07:56:30 pm

RabbitGTDguy

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2007, 07:56:30 pm »
Quote from: "DA-BRT"
Step by step.

@TinTin: Thanks for the pump number I'm going to order the control leaver of the Ford pump

This week I'm going to modify the control leaver and trottle shaft leaver. After that shimming the pump on a test pump housing.


Where/How are you finding the ability to buy the pump parts individually and without them costing a SMALL fortune? Last time a friend and I tried to price misc pieces like throttle shafts, control lever assemblies, etc. we were looking at insane prices!!!

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #27December 14, 2007, 10:59:03 pm

Tintin

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2007, 10:59:03 pm »
Quote from: "RabbitGTDguy"
Quote from: "DA-BRT"
Step by step.

@TinTin: Thanks for the pump number I'm going to order the control leaver of the Ford pump

This week I'm going to modify the control leaver and trottle shaft leaver. After that shimming the pump on a test pump housing.


Where/How are you finding the ability to buy the pump parts individually and without them costing a SMALL fortune? Last time a friend and I tried to price misc pieces like throttle shafts, control lever assemblies, etc. we were looking at insane prices!!!

Joe


I agree, I already bought some parts at my local bosch dealer, and It's expensive,  the most of  the part I need are not used in America, they must make a special order in Germany and I must pay some shipping.

There is another way, a chinese parts, and lever cost around 10$, but it's necessary to buy 100 + parts of them, it do not sell these parts separetely.

Reply #28December 14, 2007, 11:10:42 pm

RabbitGTDguy

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2007, 11:10:42 pm »
Hmm...to go into business making mTDI pumps, etc...this would be a worthwhile venture if the chinese parts were up to par...but, then...who of us has time!!!

Martin, haven't forgotten about you either...just haven't had the time to reply/look yet.

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #29December 15, 2007, 03:37:23 am

DA-BRT

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M-tdi hangs in high RPM's, newbie, help please...
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2007, 03:37:23 am »
A good friend of mine ownes a bosch dealership. The prices are ok. Biggest problem is getting the good parts. There are documents at the bosch dealer where they can look up the individual partnummers when they got a pump number.

I've been searching the programm for 12mm mechanical pumps, now got the number for the control leaver from the VW LT pump and the Ford pump Tintin mentioned. When they are not ok I send them back. (I don't know if it's my privelige of doing that?)

Any how as soon as I located for what I think is the correct control leaver and trottle shaft I post the bosch part numbers in this topic.

I think Sander will keep you posted about the Cabby and how the engine runs.

 

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